I think I got it right but not sure... - Page 2

I think I got it right but not sure...

This is a discussion on I think I got it right but not sure... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think the pepper spray as a non-lethal backup option is sounding pretty good. Crap, now I have to pay attention to THAT part of ...

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Thread: I think I got it right but not sure...

  1. #16
    Member Array xsquidgator's Avatar
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    I think the pepper spray as a non-lethal backup option is sounding pretty good. Crap, now I have to pay attention to THAT part of the law too. But, it would seem lie a really good thing to have if some scumbag approaches without a visible weapon.


  2. #17
    Member Array AZ Dog's Avatar
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    Maverick

    No one else asked these questions so I guess the burden is on me.

    Is the BG definitely unarmed? Is the BG that's robbing the fast food clerk alone? Or does he have backup in the restaurant with him or nearby outside?

    You can't answer any of these questions with any certainty. The point is that in trying to stop a non-violent crime, you may get a 230 grainer in the back of your head.

    In general, I would think it best to take up a defensive position where you can see as much of your surroundings as possible and re-evaluate and act accordingly from there. As others have said, if he pulls a weapon and starts threatening, shooting, or herding people in back to the freezer, you'll need to re-evaluate at that time.

  3. #18
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Just another thought to throw in... Are CCW holders law enforcement? Not necessarily. BUT, and here is the kicker: Most states, TN being one of them, have laws in place to allow for "citizen'a arrests" in feliny cases. In most, if not all states, strong arm robbery is a felony. Citizens in this case, have much the same authority and protections as a law enforecement officer.
    Consider that you draw your weapon and order the BG to drop to the floor and he complies. You would be justified in drawing your weapon in this case. You would also be allowed to use the "reasonable force" necessary to detain the BG until LE arrives. You have stopped the immplied (or perceived) threat by displaying deadly force and affected a citizens arrest. The announcement of a robbery is reasonably implying the threat of force, possibly deadly, that would be sufficient to draw your weapon. Now I would not address this to anyone who is of the mind "when I draw my weapon, I am going to fire". I have drawn mine dozens of times (as an LEO) and have never fired it at a threat, which is the case most of the times.

    Just my 2 cents worth, and I am NOT a lawyer, however.

    Charlie
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

  4. #19
    Member Array My73LT's Avatar
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    In Florida, we're only allowed the use of deadly force to stop a 'forcible felony' ( as previously mentioned ). This includes rape, murder, etc.. It's pretty simple. No weapon in his hand, it ain't forcible. If you pull first, you COULD be charged with illegal display of a firearm, and if it turns out he didn't even have a weapon ( or even show one ), kiss your CCW goodbye.

    Me, personally, I would back off, leaving if possible, and dial 911. Failing in that, prep my weapon ( pull if possible, but keep under my jacket or in my pocket ), while putting distance between me and the BG and wait.

    As far as the BG attempting to rob you, I belive you'd have to give him your wallet as well, unless you decided to go H2H. My Deputy Chief informed in my own personalized training, that you can't pull a gun unless you are in fear of your life, because the gun implies deadly force. Since I am not in fear of my life, only robbery, I going to have to kick@ass the old fashioned way, or give him my wallet. This of course varies with the attacker. If he was 7 foot 9, 400 pounds, and I was 5 foot 1, well..... I could reasonably argue fear for my life. Sadly, for this part of the scenario, I am 6 foot 1 and 230.

    AS SOON AS HE HAS A GUN DRAWN, again assuming I didn't leave in part 1, I have the right to draw and fire mine. He's committing a forcible felony. I don't/didn't have the ability to leave and am in reasonable fear for my life. His attention is not on me at the moment, but could turn my way at any time. Legally, morally, and more important, TACTICLY then would be the time to put him down. A knife would change that slightly, since I may not be in fear of my own life, but he's still committing a forcible felony. I'd probably tell him to get familiar with the lobby floor if I had 5 or more feet of distance, draw and shoot if it was less.

    Also, as a side note that no-one mentioned : Typically, in a McBurger King, they have cameras all over the front part of the lobby. Whatever you do, it'll be recorded for the lawyers and LEO's later...

  5. #20
    Member Array arcticelf's Avatar
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    Here in MA citazens arrest does exist for felonies. So legaly thats fine.

    My responce is a bit diferent because I wont go for a gun first (though I'll certanly be ready to):

    I'd probably start the process by steping back and looking for his backup. If thats not evident then I'll mace the guy. The clerk wont be happy about the over spray, but the BG will be on the floor. Then we can call for the PD to come take him away.

    just my thoughts,
    AE

  6. #21
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    I'd like to add something for Only Glock and My73LT... Citizens do not have the same rights as LEOs, it actually goes the other way around only LEOs have some extra statutory (written law) rights. Both citizens and LEOs have the right to arrest someone for a felony, but both have to use a "measured force" to do it. The difference is citizens have to use a reasonable amount as compared with another citizen and LEOs are compared with other LEOs.

    LEOs create the precedent for other LEOs. If LEOs train that pulling their gun on any person committing a felony is standard with or without a weapon showing, then any LEO can do the same. However, a "measured force" that is "reasonable" to another citizen doesn't mean pulling a gun, especially if that person doesn't have (or is implying) a weapon.

    That's how it works. LEOs have a majority of their rights vested in laws that were created for use by any citizen, with the exception of statutory rights (e.g. parking anywhere they want while on duty, use of emergency lights, etc.). Remember: We didn't always have police forces (or a lot of them, anyway) and a majority of the laws were created then.

    Cheers.

  7. #22
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    All the good and smart stuff has already been said above.

    I'll only add that we never get to "pick & choose" the deadly scenario that Lady Fate decides to fling into our respective faces.

    The above scenario is exactly WHY a self~defensive shooter MUST be able to gain extremely fast and well rehearsed/practiced access to their defensive firearm.

    It is because during one second the prudent thing is to take NO Action...and in the very next split second we are in real deadly peril...and in immediate danger of wearing the Toe Tag Of Eternity.

    This is NOT a good time to have your firearm keeping good company way down in your pants with your Jingle-Berries...while you are 15 seconds away from getting that firearm to effective presentation.

    The chances are quite likely that "when & if" you ever need it you're going to need it in an Awful Super Big Hurry.

  8. #23
    Member Array steve_db's Avatar
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    Some sound advice from http://firearmstactical.com/

    2. Know exactly when you can use your gun.
    A criminal adversary must have, or reasonably appear to have:

    I. the ability to inflict serious bodily injury (he is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon),

    II. the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm (he is physically positioned to harm you with his weapon), and

    III. his intent (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy -- to do you serious or fatal physical harm.

    When all three of these "attack potential" elements are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that can justify an emergency deadly force response.

  9. #24
    New Member Array brnforce's Avatar
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    I wanted to add really quick that under no circumstances should you pull a gun with the intentions of intimidation. I have seen far to many situations where someone pulled out a weapon without the intention of using it and being totally dominated by the more aggressive, far more determined attacker. If you choose to pull out a weapon, you choose to use it. I'm not saying that you have to, just that you should have that intention from the get go.
    "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Admiral Yamamoto

  10. #25
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    When the weapon comes into play, the whole thing changes.

    I know this is sort of a "cop out", but it depends on my read of the guy. Does he look nervous and edgy, or is he relatively composed? If I think he's just going to take the cash and leave, I am not going to call down a firefight.
    When he brandishes a weapon, the threat of deadly force is plain and obvious. That justifies in any state, the use of deadly force to prevent the death or serious bodily injury to a third party.

    Charlie
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

  11. #26
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brnforce View Post
    I wanted to add really quick that under no circumstances should you pull a gun with the intentions of intimidation. I have seen far to many situations where someone pulled out a weapon without the intention of using it and being totally dominated by the more aggressive, far more determined attacker. If you choose to pull out a weapon, you choose to use it. I'm not saying that you have to, just that you should have that intention from the get go.
    If that is the way it sounded in one of my previous posts, I did not intend it to... I NEVER draw my weapon for intimidation. When I draw, I have full intentions of using it IF NECESSARY. If you pull your weapon facing of the threat of deadly force, and the BG drops his weapon, for example, the threat is no longer present (at least to the same extent) and the justification for using deadly force is no longer present. If you draw your weapon and are WILLING to use deadly force, and the threat stops in that brief instant, you better be just as quick to remove your finger from the trigger. I have drawn down on suspects numerous times, and many times before even a verbal command can be given, the threat stops. Drawing my weapon served its intended purpose without actually being fired.

    Definitely, if someone does not have the justification for drawing their weapon or does not intend, or is not willing to use it, it should most assuredly stay holstered and concealed.

    Also, welcome, brnforce.

    Charlie
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

  12. #27
    New Member Array brnforce's Avatar
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    I'm sorry for misunderstanding, and thanks for the welcome!
    "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Admiral Yamamoto

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brnforce View Post
    I'm sorry for misunderstanding, and thanks for the welcome!
    Man! This is why I hang out on this site. It's a group of informed, sensible, and overall nice bunch of folks. I'm impressed with the sincerity and decency throughout every post that I have read thus far.

    Welcome brnforce.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Only Glock View Post
    When he brandishes a weapon, the threat of deadly force is plain and obvious. That justifies in any state, the use of deadly force to prevent the death or serious bodily injury to a third party.

    Charlie
    True - which leads us to the much deeper discussion of should you do what you can do, just because you can do it?

    Yes, the law would recognize that you are justified in using deadly force against the subject if he is brandishing the weapon and making threats.

    But does that necessarily mean you should use deadly force in this case?

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  15. #30
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    Thumbs up

    Hey brnforce -

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