September 27th, 2006 01:53 PM
Patriot Games scenario
I started thinking about this the other day, after watching Patriot Games.
Suppose you are in Jack Ryan's shoes at the start of the movie. You are walking towards your family, when four armed men jump out of a car, detonate a bomb underneath an armoured limo, shoot the driver and escorts, and are preparing to blast open the door to the passenger compartment, with clear intent to kill or kidnap those inside.
I think we can all agree that what he did in the movie was pretty dumb in a real-life situation: running towards the car unarmed, disarming one of the BG's, and shooting the other three (who happen to be armed with assault rifles). High probability of catching multiple rifle rounds and sending your family home alone.
However, what if you were armed (legally), and witnessed this kind of terrorist act in progress? Let's say for the sake of discussion that you are not over-seas, your family is in a safe location, and the BG's are all focused on their target, not you. The cops are on their way, but by the time they get there, all they'll find is an empty car and a dead driver.
Do you try to intervene? Do you try to get to their getaway car (the one you saw them all get out of) and break off the key/slash the tires or something else? Or do you hunker down behind cover and let them make off with the hostages.
September 27th, 2006 02:54 PM
An old friend from high school who I hadn't talked with in years made a comment about the WTC attack. He went to NYC and saw the aftermath. As we were having a discussion he made the comment that I would have been one of the people running towards the WTC versus what he would have done, which was run away. I told him that I had to agree, I would have run towards it.
I think the same would happen in a Patriot Games scenario. Do what I could to get up on them and do what I could.
Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.
September 27th, 2006 04:11 PM
Yea, I might end up the dead hero, but I would not go alone....
September 27th, 2006 04:14 PM
Yeah, I think I'd intervene. Move up to MOH (minute of head) range and commence fire. There's no need for conversation with active shooters. Decide on a plan, and go to work.
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
September 27th, 2006 04:16 PM
against assault rifles I would find cover that would allow me to retreat further, and open fire to the best of my ability until I had exhasuted my ammo. Hopefully that would slow them down and cause confusion in the "plan". It's very likely that if they have access to explosives and assault rifles and coordinated a major operation like that, they would have access to level ii or iii body armor. Would I act? Yes. Would I charge headlong into a close quarters battle? Not in that situation (unless it was MY family in the cars, then all bets are off).
September 27th, 2006 04:21 PM
Read the book to get more details. In the book Ryan gets patted on the back by many of the Brits and their SAS, at the same time they chastise him for
1. Not seeking proper cover while engaging.
2. Not putting the round into the head of the terrorist he had disarmed and left on the ground.
September 27th, 2006 04:47 PM
I would like to think I would help my fellow man if at all possible. I don't plan to get killed for them if possible but I think I would try to help out. One thing that worries me is how everyone seems to worry only about themsleves these days, and how we are all afraid of being sued if we intervine. That is a truly sad comentary about our culture. I blame lawyers for this line of thinking.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
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September 27th, 2006 05:16 PM
I Should Risk...
my life for the very 'government' people who took the right of self'defense AWAY from the people...Sheeesh!
Anyway...I would tend to stay away from places with that potential.
Stay safe...think smart!
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NRA Life Member[/B]
September 27th, 2006 05:18 PM
I was waiting for someone to bring this up. It would certainly be a major concern to me, and that's why I tried to think of other alternative distraction or stalling methods to keep them around till the LEO's showed up, without directly engaging them in a gunfight myself. Like slashing the getaway car's tires, for example.
Originally Posted by riversdaddy
I've long been of the opinion that if the defendant in a civil suit wins, all his legal and court fees should be payed by whoever brought the suit against him. That would get rid of a lot of frivolous lawsuits real quick.
Originally Posted by havegunjoe
September 27th, 2006 05:51 PM
Interestingly--because the opening of the movie was set in London--that is exactly the system they have in Great Britain.
Originally Posted by Bob The Great
September 27th, 2006 06:07 PM
Lets say we have four special forces guys. Not cops, Osama Bin Laden is in an armored car. Drivers compartment not so shielded.
SpecOps guys take out the driver and front seat bodyguard. Osama is in the back. Reinforcements will be coming for him any second.
Only way to get him out is to blow him out.
Along comes Mr Concerned Citizen and wrecks everything.
Not so clear cut after all.
No matter what it may LOOK like, you don't know what is going on. It may not be a great idea to intervene. Especially as you are massively outgunned and are unlikely to change any outcome than that of your family having to live without you.
Patriot Games is a movie, where the GG doesn't miss, doesn't get shot before he has made his charge, get a non-fatal but heroic wound and saves the day. Life is a little less formulaic. Ask the family of Mark Allen Wilson.
Now, I am looking at it from the comfort of my PC. If I was actually there, maybe I wouldn't take my own advice. But the fact remains I got my CHL foremost to protect me and mine.
Now if there was something obvious like a guy picking off bystanders, it's a no brainer, but this particular scenario is not a clear cut as it looks.
As Chris likes to say, play each one as you see it.
September 27th, 2006 07:40 PM
I would not intervine. I would be afraid that I would get shot by the BGs and as I lie there dying, after taking them out of course, the last thing I would ever see would be ....[enter name of liberal anti-gun, anti-war, anti-hunting, anti American politician or useless actor/actress who is not worth risking anything for here].... as he/she steps out of the limo unscathed.
Last edited by sgtD; September 27th, 2006 at 07:48 PM.
When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.
September 27th, 2006 08:48 PM
Be careful what you wish for. In such a system a major corporation could throw limitless money at fighting a case and simply win by spending more cash. Then the plaintiff would have to pay the corporation! Such a system will stifle any lawsuits against major corporations.
Originally Posted by Bob The Great
September 27th, 2006 09:51 PM
True. But how different is this from the way things are now? j/k Our legal system does need an overhaul though.
Originally Posted by Musketeer
September 27th, 2006 11:14 PM
Four armed BG's, with bombs and auto weapons. Bad, bad odds. They'd very likely be technically proficient at using those arms. They'd likely have planned this one out. It's not unreasonable that one or more folks beyond the visible four would be on lookout, not obviously identifiable as being with the group.
Originally Posted by Bob The Great
Four-plus BG's, armed, working as a trained team? I'd hunker down. I'd be on the phone to the cavalry. If one brought his attentions to bear on me or my family, I would drop him (then move to other cover). The GG's in the car should, of course, be armed themselves. If they're not, they get to experience an object lesson in survival tactics without preparation or a plan. They were hoping that police would be able to instantly appear. Not a good time to realize the fallacy of that hope.
Now, were a couple friends and I to be on the scene and all were armed with magazines to spare, or if I were there without my family, then perhaps it would be different. But, as outlined, the simple odds of getting killed scratch this one off the list. I'd help, but from a discreet distance. My first priority is my family. Always.
Last edited by ccw9mm; September 28th, 2006 at 08:06 AM.
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