A Blink of Eye @ 7-11

This is a discussion on A Blink of Eye @ 7-11 within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I went to a local 7-11 last night around 6:30 pm . I dont tend to be a real regular customer maybe one time a ...

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Thread: A Blink of Eye @ 7-11

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Hot Wing's Avatar
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    A Blink of Eye @ 7-11

    I went to a local 7-11 last night around 6:30 pm .

    I dont tend to be a real regular customer maybe one time a month if that.

    The one Lady clerk lets call her Linda I have seen there before (very nice person )

    Well she was buzy with her line so I had the man at other line fix me up I had orderd a Pizza that they

    make it takes about 2 - 3 mins to make it so I paid the man at kinda just hung out out of the way from others .

    Linda was helping an elderly lady . The next thing I know is all heck breaks loose .

    Black male is screaming at linda all because she had asked him for ID for a it looked like a quart of some kind of beer.

    This place was fairly busy lots of customers in line It got my attention because he looked very angery

    still screaming, Linda did say in now a louder tone get it out of store. This guy slams the quart glass bottle down very close to me

    and almost hiting linda still swearing she says I will call the cops .

    I had enough and said " Hey knock it off " and go .Well then he has door open and starts with me.

    He said I will kick your ass and thinks about lungeing at me with open door.

    I did say mess me with hand now in right pocket on LCR. I dont think so .

    He thank god went out door and left .

    The clerks had already called cops and they where there in less than 1 min.

    I did not stay .

    I know I did wrong by geting involved but was afarid this fool was going to hit linda.

    Dont beat me too bad
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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    I won't critique your actions in this matter other than to say that nothing much good ever seems to happen at a 7-11 store.
    OldVet, darbo and mano3 like this.

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    VIP Member Array joker1's Avatar
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    You did alright. Armed or not a man doesn't let a woman get beat on.
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    TVJ
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    What did you do wrong?

    Guy was being unruly. You were worried about Linda. You are a law abiding nice person. Perp was disorderly and menacing towards herand you were concerned for her safety.

    Well done.

    If he came after you, would you have drawn down?

    If he kept coming after you drew down, would you have shot him to neutralize and under what FL legal justification would you have used?
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Stepping in to protect the weak against aggression isn't always wise. But it IS sometimes uncontrollably, instinctively necessary. If you couldn't stand-by to watch Linda get injured, if the thought of that happening makes you nauseous, then you did what you SHOULD have done. I'm not trivializing the circumstances but those situations are a (very) high-stakes gamble. We weren't there so we can't see the threat from the bluff. We can play our own interpretation of your description in our mind, but we were NOT on the scene. The lesson (for me) is that it's ALWAYS a roll of the dice. Just the smallest tick either way (armed companions in the car, drug-induced rage, a distraction for a planned robbery) could instantly mean you're fighting for your LIFE, out-gunned against multiple assailants, with a 5 shot pocket revolver. Glad you & Linda are okay. Be safe!
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    Senior Member Array Hot Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    What did you do wrong?

    Guy was being unruly. You were worried about Linda. You are a law abiding nice person. Perp was disorderly and menacing towards herand you were concerned for her safety.

    Well done.

    If he came after you, would you have drawn down?

    If he kept coming after you drew down, would you have shot him to neutralize and under what FL legal justification would you have used?
    Good points thought alot about that last night .

    Drawn down most likely would get real ugly this guy off charts anger .

    Uh not sure about shoot didnt know if this guy was armed .

    I think for most part it would have been fist flying if he jumped on me .

    Thought about that alot last night me being white he being black.

    We have all seen a whole lot of the Florida stand thing.

    Oh make no mistake if he came at me with weapon its full on

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    Senior Member Array Hot Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joker1 View Post
    You did alright. Armed or not a man doesn't let a woman get beat on.
    Thanks thats was my whole thinking .

    Was rasised that way and proud to say have never nor would never ever hit a women.
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    Senior Member Array Happypuppy's Avatar
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    Sneak away call 911. Always carry aless lethal option such as OC. They are not called stop n rob for nothing.

    Think of it this way someone is at a pump getting gas all they see is animated movement and then you really do pull out your pocket pistol. The person at the pump calls 911 and says a guy has pistol out at the 7-11

    What happens next?
    Last edited by Happypuppy; September 11th, 2012 at 06:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    What did you do wrong?

    Guy was being unruly. You were worried about Linda. You are a law abiding nice person. Perp was disorderly and menacing towards herand you were concerned for her safety.

    Well done.

    If he came after you, would you have drawn down?

    If he kept coming after you drew down, would you have shot him to neutralize and under what FL legal justification would you have used?


    This is subjective, and a key issue, to me at least, would be the drawing down prior to any actual assault. Here are a few of the FL statutes justifying use of deadly force:

    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony
    ; or
    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

    776.013: (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. (This is the Zimmerman Defense.)

    776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    I tend to see replies that make excuses for you. Replies are using words like "hitting a woman", menacing, etal. I read about a belligerent idiot making a lot of noise and posturing. Linda should have called 911 and you, the guy with the firearm, should have called 911 yourself and, if concerned as you were, stay there until police arrive. Where exactly is imminent danger of death or great bodily injury in this scenario? Does not mean I do not understand what everyone is saying but outside of a loud idiot, what exactly requires the potential for an eventual firearm here, that you actually initiated.
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    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    My rule of thumb is to not use my gun as a crutch when I'm not involved.

    If a situation I'm not involved in cannot be handled without my gun, I stay out of it. The problem I have here is that you got involved and put your hand on your gun right away.

    Sorry, but "Linda" isn't worth me losing my life over or missing out on my kids growing up. "Linda" handled the situation just fine.

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    TVJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    [/B]

    This is subjective, and a key issue, to me at least, would be the drawing down prior to any actual assault. Here are a few of the FL statutes justifying use of deadly force:

    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony
    ; or
    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

    776.013: (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. (This is the Zimmerman Defense.)

    776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

    This is a great post for FL law. Reading this, I dont see how you could fire on the perp if he came at you without some type of 'weapon' to create the reasonable fear of aggravated assault. I believe he put down the bottle and stormed out. Moreover, I dont see how you could draw down if he had no weapon and was just coming at you.

    In Texas under Title 2, Chapter 9 - specifically 9.04:

    Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.
    So I can repel his force/threat coming at me with "draw down" non-lethal force so long as I initially just draw down. If he keeps coming after I draw down, I can reasonably articulate perp's legal deliberate indifference. He did not care I had gun....he just kept coming (very dangerous). Does FL allow this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hot Wing View Post
    Good points thought alot about that last night .

    Drawn down most likely would get real ugly this guy off charts anger .

    Uh not sure about shoot didnt know if this guy was armed .

    I think for most part it would have been fist flying if he jumped on me .

    Thought about that alot last night me being white he being black.

    We have all seen a whole lot of the Florida stand thing.

    Oh make no mistake if he came at me with weapon its full on

    To me the tricky scenario is if he has no weapon shown. Unless you are good hand to hand as well as maintaining the security of your weapon, this could get problematic if your trying to figure this out in the heat of the moment. Indeed, you better be ready and train(ed) to go from 0-100 immediately.

    If he starts getting the better of you, can you get your weapon out then and contact shoot at extreme close range? Airsoft Fof can provide great training/troubleshooting for just this type of situation.

    Look, I am with you on bullies, ESPECIALLY towards women. Per your description he did everything but hit her with the bottle. But he didnt hit her. But it was certainly reasonable to be very concerned given his clear actions. I think it would be smart to have a safety protocol for yourself if you are going to "confront" a bullying situation like this. Because if he comes at you hopped up and hard without displaying any weapon for an aggravated assault charge (or he is massive in size compared to you), you may be immediately way behind the violence curve along with not training accessing pocket carry under heavy duress.

    Just some thoughts. I respect you for standing up to the bully. (Note, if he had hit the clerk with the bottle instead of the counter, IMO that is clear aggravated assault, potential grave bodily harm and disparity of force - shoot him into the ground before he turns away from the clerk so you are justified in neutralizing the threat in front of the woman (versus he moved on and no longer poses continued threat.)
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

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    TVJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    I tend to see replies that make excuses for you. Replies are using words like "hitting a woman", menacing, etal. I read about a belligerent idiot making a lot of noise and posturing. Linda should have called 911 and you, the guy with the firearm, should have called 911 yourself and, if concerned as you were, stay there until police arrive. Where exactly is imminent danger of death or great bodily injury in this scenario? Does not mean I do not understand what everyone is saying but outside of a loud idiot, what exactly requires the potential for an eventual firearm here, that you actually initiated.
    He was doing all those things. The way I read his OP, the perp was getting really close to committing aggravated assault. He didnt, but the setup was there and it was reasonable to conclude that's the way it was going. I would be clearly concerned for the clerk.

    According to FL law from the post above, there was no justification for the use/drawdown of a firearm.

    Im giving no excuses to the OP - just analyzing the situation tactically and legally under FL law and TX law for myself.

    The only excuse is the scumbag perp for a Man.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

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    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    this is a clear case for pepper spray but all you wanted to do is grab for a gun, would you have been right maybe-maybe not but it would have cost you either way

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    If he was in the process of leaving, saying anything to him could likely be considered escalation. If he was coming back in, then stating something might be warranted. But I do agree, get on the phone and start calling 911 and still have your firearm within reach because he may not react well if he hears you calling the cops. People can be volatile and be set off at the slightest thing. The one thing you might have going for you in a situation like this, is plenty of witnesses, but then again, if they are biased against a certain race and/or firearms, they may not be beneficial and not tell what really happened but what they perceived as happening based on their biases.

    It is a gamble anytime you feel you need to pull your firearm. Sometimes the odds are stacked in your favor and other times the odds are stacked against you.
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