When to "ALWAYS" draw and/or shoot scenerios at work. - Page 2

When to "ALWAYS" draw and/or shoot scenerios at work.

This is a discussion on When to "ALWAYS" draw and/or shoot scenerios at work. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Roon Going to have to call you out on this one. I know that the law varies from State to State, but ...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 28 of 28
Like Tree10Likes

Thread: When to "ALWAYS" draw and/or shoot scenerios at work.

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,883
    Quote Originally Posted by Roon View Post
    Going to have to call you out on this one. I know that the law varies from State to State, but in general having a gun pointed at you is hands down cause for fear of death/GBH and would justify a shoot. I am not of the "give the robber what he wants and nobody gets hurt" mindset...if a criminal wants to involve deadly weapons then he wins his stupid prize for playing stupid games.
    I am not talking about the law. I am talking about survival and not making things worse. If you think you can out draw and gun them more power to you. If he has the gun pointed at someone else you are now taking a risk of that person getting shot when the odds are that if you do nothing the other clerk may live.

    If you feel that defending the property of a pharmacy or WalMart is worth risking your life go for it. Your weapon is for protection of yourself, not your employers property.

    Now, what did you call me out on?

    BTW: I said it has to do with many variables...including training and mndset. Not everyone is capable of doing what others can do.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8


  2. #17
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    16,527
    "...the owners have encouraged me to carry a firearm. "

    I don't know if there is an "always" time to draw. Situations are so fluid. As do the folks on this forum, but remember--you are ultimately responsible if that weapon is used. It's encouraging to see owners who endorse self-protection, the liability be damned.

    Like others have stated, know your state's laws, not only on when to shoot, but on the use and display of a deadly weapon also.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  3. #18
    Member Array Roon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    265
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I am not talking about the law. I am talking about survival and not making things worse. If you think you can out draw and gun them more power to you. If he has the gun pointed at someone else you are now taking a risk of that person getting shot when the odds are that if you do nothing the other clerk may live.p
    Like I said, I am not of the mindset that allowing criminals to do what they want will result in everyone surviving. I mean, if a woman would just let herself be raped she probably has a better chance of survival vs fighting her attacker. Sorry, but I just don't agree with that mentality or reasoning.


    If you feel that defending the property of a pharmacy or WalMart is worth risking your life go for it. Your weapon is for protection of yourself, not your employers property.
    If a gun is pointed at you, it is no longer a question of defending property. That person has just presented a real and credible threat to your life. If you point a gun a law enforcement and demand the departments property...you think they are going to simply comply with those demands because the departments property isn't worth dying for? Before you go on about how different it is for LEO's...just stop. We are talking about a mindset and general principles.

    Now, what did you call me out on?
    Your mindset.

    BTW: I said it has to do with many variables...including training and mndset. Not everyone is capable of doing what others can do.
    Totally agree, but I read the OP as asking about what situations he would be justified in drawing and firing in. While there is no one size fits all answer to that question...legally if he has a gun pointed at him by a criminal most people would say he is good to go if he feels he is capable of drawing in that situation.

  4. #19
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    21,588
    I think you'll find there is no set answer to your question. No 2 situations will be the same, what will be the right choice in one may very well be the wrong choice in another.
    tcox4freedom likes this.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

    USAF Retired
    NRA Life Member

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,883
    Quote Originally Posted by Roon View Post
    Like I said, I am not of the mindset that allowing criminals to do what they want will result in everyone surviving. I mean, if a woman would just let herself be raped she probably has a better chance of survival vs fighting her attacker. Sorry, but I just don't agree with that mentality or reasoning.




    If a gun is pointed at you, it is no longer a question of defending property. That person has just presented a real and credible threat to your life. If you point a gun a law enforcement and demand the departments property...you think they are going to simply comply with those demands because the departments property isn't worth dying for? Before you go on about how different it is for LEO's...just stop. We are talking about a mindset and general principles.



    Your mindset.



    Totally agree, but I read the OP as asking about what situations he would be justified in drawing and firing in. While there is no one size fits all answer to that question...legally if he has a gun pointed at him by a criminal most people would say he is good to go if he feels he is capable of drawing in that situation.
    Rape is different. It is physical assualt...Robbery us not. Of course a female (or male) will and should fight back.


    Don't question my mindset. My post was on options, not a this s the only way to do it attitude.

    Property is not important than life. If you feel it is and it is your life that is at risk it is your decision. If you are putting at risk someone lese over property, no thank you.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  6. #21
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,246
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    I don't know that there is a "When to "ALWAYS" draw and/or shoot scenerios at work." Each situation is different but would say a good guild would be (do you feel there is a real threat to life, either yours or someone else). ...
    Better than asking for advice on the net get some training. Learn the fundamentals of gun handling and safety then get more into the hows of gunfighting. As there is a difference in just shooting a gun and fighting with one. Also work on your mindset, having your mind right is as, if not more important than the tools you use in a fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    Your very FIRST thing is to review your states laws on the use of deadly force. That will give you a clearer picture of when you will legally be able to resort to deadly force. Second, you need to understand that the word "Always" in self defense usually is used in conjunction with the phrase "different with each case", not always draw and shoot.
    This is pretty much spot on.

    Now, I'm no lawyer, but this is how I have been taught and learned the generalities of lethal defense...

    In general (and this is very general) the criteria to lethally defend yourself falls on the AOJ (Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy) of the attacker to kill or seriously harm you.

    It also depends on your ability to recognize, act on and then express the AOJ of the attacker to your lawyer.

    Let's pull one of your scenarios....

    #2 BG at counter no visible gun but claims to have gun to clerk.

    Does he have the ability to cause death or GBH? Maybe. Yes, he has the ability to pull a trigger (unless he's missing both of his hands) but does he really have a gun? You don't know. He might have a gun, he might not. You have no reason to believe he doesn't, but you are going to have to make the call as to whether a threat of a firearm is enough to justify lethal force based upon your training and your state laws. Some states are okay with lethal force as a response to such a threat, some are not.. Is there another way? Does it have to be a gun? Remember that when all you carry is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail.. If he doesn't have a gun in his hands and is threatening, could you instead blast him with some pepper spray? If your company wants you to carry maybe they could fund a canister of pepper spray under the counter or even a taser. I'm not saying those are the 100% necessary answers to this scenario but there are more options than just draw and shoot vs don't draw and shoot.

    Second, does he have the opportunity? In this case, yes, he has the opportunity. He is standing in front of you. If, however, you were standing behind bulletproof glass with a bulletproof, locked door between you and yelling his threats through a speaker then, no, he does not have the opportunity and you can just laugh at him and you don't have the right to shoot him. The same would be true if he called you over the phone and said he was going to kill you. If he doesn't actually have the opportunity to do you harm you can't use lethal force.

    Now, jeopardy. This is where it gets sticky. Do you feel like your life (or the life of someone else) is in jeopardy. A six year old in his jammers comes running up to your counter top and says, "I gotta gun. I'm gunna shoot you!"

    Does he have the opportunity? Yes.... He's standing right in front of you.
    Does he have the ability? Yes.. anyone can pull a trigger.
    Do you feel like your life is in jeopardy? I'm going to venture that most of time the answer is going to be no. His mother steps up behind him and says, "I'm so sorry. He's big into action movies right now.. everything is a gun."

    But, you got some guy in a mask that says the same thing, that's a totally different story. Like I said, you don't know if he has a gun or not and if you feel your life is in jeopardy and can articulate that when the time comes you MAY (note: there is no definite yes or no here) you MAY be justified in using lethal force based upon your training and state laws.

    Let me reiterate that I am by no-means saying you should not shoot, but there are things to consider. And if you think that seems like a lot to process in an instant, you are right. Most of the time it's going to be instantaneous and you have to go with your gut and train yourself to be observant. As the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a lbs or cure. If your heckles get raised, take note, start looking for signs of a weapon (hands in the pocket or under the shirt are huge ones), is he milling around not looking for anything in particular .. perhaps waiting for the courage to act or for a particular customer to leave? Keep yourself on high alert and you will be able to process AOJ very quickly which will help you act when the time comes because you have the information you need and you aren't trying to catch up.

    That's why it's so important to know those laws and get good training.

    A lot of people here have already said there are no absolutes. I don't agree. But I think the absolutes are lines in the sand you need to draw for yourself.

    For instance. I will absolutely not allow anyone to put me in a vehicle. I will fight to the death right there.

    I will absolutely not allow anyone with a gun to order me to the ground. That, to me, says I'm about to be executed. It's time to fight to the death somehow.

    But there are others who may have different absolutes.

    I agree that you should do some FOF (force-on-force) training, even if it's just with a couple of friends with dummy guns so that you can run through a few of these scenarios and see what they might look like outside of your mind and how you might react.

    Good luck.

  7. #22
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,727
    I am much more concerned about my survival in a draw-against-the-drop situation than the legalities.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  8. #23
    Member Array Rxdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    74
    I am a retired Pharmacist, working in "retail" about 25 of my 40+ years experience. No, protecting drugs or owner's property was not included in my job desciption anywhere, however protecting myself and co-workers was inherent, either verbally or physically. I was on the wrong end of a pistol only once, and did not even think of "drugs or property" at all, just our survival. Pharmacy robberies are unique in that the BGs want both drugs and money, usually hyped up on something, and will shoot you or a co-worker for no reason, regardless of cooperation. I was lucky, others over the years, especially recently, have not been. Get advice and training locally, and if a gun is presented by a BG, SHOOT him when you can. The laws governing pharmacy robberies are now federally controlled, because of meds being involved, and in your favor.
    Best Regards,
    "Doc" aka Bill
    SLAINTE VAR!!

  9. #24
    GH
    GH is online now
    VIP Member Array GH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,352
    Being a fan of surveillance video TV shows & internet presentations I've noticed that in about 99 out of a 100 times the BG doing an armed robbery has his finger on the trigger. That to me presents a threat in itself. To have a gun aimed at me or at someone else less than 5' distance with finger ready to squeeze is the utmost of threats. Which brings to mind a video I saw recently where the BG had a gun aimed at the clerk & had a ND. The clerk was hit but not too serious of a wound. The robber was surprised when the gun discharged, the gun recoiled, bounced on the counter & a second ND round was fired - right into the BG. No more BG. The clerk survived. If that wasn't justice then nothing is.

    Would I shoot? If the opportunity arose, yes. With a gun aimed at me & a finger on the trigger I wouldn't make any fast moves & try to be as calm & soothing as possible. I'd give him whatever he wanted. Even so clerks have been shot after the robbery was completed.
    Glenn

    USN Submarine & UDT/SEAL Veteran
    1SG, US Army Retired - Airborne Infantry All the Way!
    Special Warfare Mentor
    M&P40, M&P40C

  10. #25
    Member Array Droolsport's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Marana, Arizona
    Posts
    15
    Thanks for all the advice . I don't care about property just my life and coworkers. I do have pepperspray in several locations and I have told the clerks what to do if badguy shows up and its get the hell out of the pharmacy out side door. I would be right behind them if possible. I don't want to shoot anyone but I don't want to hesitate when I should.

    I agree I need training and practice first. I have security cameras on order and keypad doorlock on its way too. We have advantage as long as they don't actually get behind the counter.

    Work on prevention planning and training for myself and staff.

  11. #26
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Droolsport View Post
    Thanks for all the advice . I don't care about property just my life and coworkers. I do have pepperspray in several locations and I have told the clerks what to do if badguy shows up and its get the hell out of the pharmacy out side door. I would be right behind them if possible. I don't want to shoot anyone but I don't want to hesitate when I should.

    I agree I need training and practice first. I have security cameras on order and keypad doorlock on its way too. We have advantage as long as they don't actually get behind the counter.

    Work on prevention planning and training for myself and staff.
    Good thread, and glad you learned something.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,179
    Each situation will be different,if you try to draw against an already drawn gun that may be the last thing you ever do,or your coworker has a gun on them and you draw ,BG shoots them and now that family is suing you and your employer because you escalated the situation causing their loved ones death
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,179
    Quote Originally Posted by Roon View Post
    Going to have to call you out on this one. I know that the law varies from State to State, but in general having a gun pointed at you is hands down cause for fear of death/GBH and would justify a shoot. I am not of the "give the robber what he wants and nobody gets hurt" mindset...if a criminal wants to involve deadly weapons then he wins his stupid prize for playing stupid games.
    I'm not gonna draw againdt the "Drop" but once his attention and gun are diverted then he may very likely get a case of lead poisoning
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

is freedom worth risking your life for

,

what to do after shooting in self defense

Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors