When to "ALWAYS" draw and/or shoot scenerios at work.
This is a discussion on When to "ALWAYS" draw and/or shoot scenerios at work. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just purchased a handgun and will be getting CCW training and certified ASAP. In the mean time I am trying to do some mental ...
September 21st, 2012 08:06 PM
When to "ALWAYS" draw and/or shoot scenerios at work.
I just purchased a handgun and will be getting CCW training and certified ASAP. In the mean time I am trying to do some mental training by running through different scenerios, more specifically at work sceneios. I am a Pharmacist working in a privately owned pharmacy, the owners have encouraged me to carry a firearm.
When is it advised by experts to draw and/or fire at a BG with no hesitation? The obvious scenerio is someone points a gun at you or a co-worker. I am sure there are exceptions ie hostage situation etc... What is the proverbial crossing of the line no questions?
To be more specific about where I work think big horseshoe with low counter/register to front of horse shoe, full wall between myself and register. Windows and counter at left and right corner of horse shoe. They cant see me but I can see the front counter area via reflection in a large picture.
#1 BG at counter with gun pointed at clerk
#1.5 same but clerk ran to cover after sounding alert
#2 BG at counter no visible gun but claims to have gun to clerk.
#3 BG at 10 oclock (to me) window with high counter where BG can see me directly and me at the end of counter with full wall in front of me facing window BG has gun in hand. ie I can easily duck to my right and be out of sight.
#3.5 same but calls me over then says has gun
I am seriously thinking about having a expert come to the pharmacy and working out likely scenerios so I can practice defensive maneuvers after hours. In the mean time just trying to do some gray matter training.
September 21st, 2012 08:18 PM
Wouldn't affect me. My employer doesn't allow guns on premises and would fire me immediately if they found out I had one, license notwithstanding.
Don't know how many others work for companies like that, but it's pretty common from my experience.
September 21st, 2012 08:23 PM
in bold: WRONG
Originally Posted by Droolsport
Just becasue someone is pointing a gun at you or someone else does not mean you should take out your gun all the time.
Simple robberies most often turn out that no one gets hurt unless they resist. You have to use your judgement at the time of the incident. The demeanor of the BG, a host of other variables.
It is good you are preparing mentally for this but scenarios's on forums are hard to give a direct "an expert would do this" answer.
One thing is your training and abilities and lack there of. Some folks here have been through extensive training while others have not. That does not mean to not take a shot on certain circumstances.
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
September 21st, 2012 08:34 PM
My advice would be for you to get some real force-on-force training.
"If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
William T. Sherman
September 21st, 2012 11:03 PM
I don't know that there is a "When to "ALWAYS" draw and/or shoot scenerios at work." Each situation is different but would say a good guild would be (do you feel there is a real threat to life, either yours or someone else). Also will it be obvious to others that the threat was real.
As to Suntzu's comment "Just becasue someone is pointing a gun at you or someone else does not mean you should take out your gun all the time." You will find on most any forum you will different opinions on most everything. I take it personal when someone points a gun in my face. Most times will get a gun pointed back at you and if it is pointed at you I will be pulling the trigger. One thing I don't do it pull and point a gun for show. Someone else's face I will most likely not take it so personal and will give and have a little leave way and his actions will be more observed.
Better than asking for advice on the net get some training. Learn the fundamentals of gun handling and safety then get more into the hows of gunfighting. As there is a difference in just shooting a gun and fighting with one. Also work on your mindset, having your mind right is as, if not more important than the tools you use in a fight.
It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45
"Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes
September 21st, 2012 11:37 PM
Your very FIRST thing is to review your states laws on the use of deadly force. That will give you a clearer picture of when you will legally be able to resort to deadly force. Second, you need to understand that the word "Always" in self defense usually is used in conjunction with the phrase "different with each case", not always draw and shoot.
Write down your questions and take them to your carry class. Don't just try and remember them, some classes get rolling and it's easy to forget things that aren't written down. A good instructor will be able to answer your questions or find an answer for you.
North Carolina Concealed Handgun Permit Instructor
NRA Personal Protection and Basic Pistol Instructor
September 21st, 2012 11:38 PM
There aren't any. How good of a shot are you? Since you are mostly out of the line of sight, you should probably be on the phone first.
September 22nd, 2012 12:05 AM
I don't think there are any hard fast rules! With a gun pointed at you or a Co worker the appearance of your gun may cause an escalation. On the other hand If its evident that this BG is already escalating what you do may save a life. Not having been put in this position, but knowing what I know about BGs [ Ive worked the last two decades in a large jail] It would depend on their actions. If the BG pulls the trigger even into the ceiling or floor it shows me that he doesn't care, and I have nothing to lose by making my best play! So if they already have the drop on you or a co worker you will have to decide quickly if its safer to give up the cash and drugs or shoot it out.
I don't think the verbal threat of an unseen weapon would make me shoot, But after that threat if that person then put his hands any where near his pockets, Hes now escalating and may get shot! This is a scenario that happens a lot to cops. The BG says he has a gun, and cops respond. Until hes searched and proven not to be armed, He must be treated as armed. Good training will give you a lot of these scenarios to go through. DR
September 22nd, 2012 12:37 AM
I would have to agree with the earlier post and say that there is no hard, always draw rule. Make sure you follow the advice of NC Bullseye and know your states laws. Be aware of the situation and any variables, and remember that possessions are not worth losing your life over.
September 22nd, 2012 01:58 AM
As has been stated already, there really aren't any "always" scenarios. Too many variables that need to be assessed. Training from a good defensive shooting class will allow you to start developing the skills and mindset to be able to assess a given situation and decide when/if drawing/shooting is the best course of action.
September 22nd, 2012 02:30 AM
Know your own state's use-of-force statutes cold. The legal standards to which you'll be held vary, from state to state.
Originally Posted by Droolsport
Consider the principle of A.O.J.: Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy. But balance that with the inevitable wringer you'll be put through if it does come to the use of deadly force by you, and whether you're willing/able to navigate all of that successfully ... irrespective of whether you're technically "right" in using force.
As to where's the absolute "line" that's crossed? There is no such line. Nothing's absolute. Every situation's different. Welcome to the wonderful world of carrying.
My suggestion: Get as much "advanced" practical training as you're able to afford and stomach, including force-on-force, and shoot-no-shoot style training. Vary the instructors and style of instruction. Continue thinking through various situations in terms of how explosive they can be, how things can blow sideways without warning, how deadly of a threat are you willing to accept before going down the irreversible path of firing on another, etc.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
September 22nd, 2012 02:55 AM
Our company building is not posted but employees are not allowed to carry. Therfore not being a walk in business we could only hope that someone coming in to apply will be armed.
Considering our turnover rate and very poor tempered employees, I hope it never happens.
"The thing about quotes on the internet is that you can not confirm their validity."
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky. dangerous animals."
September 22nd, 2012 05:07 AM
I never knew protecting stock and/or co-workers was part of a pharmacist's job description. Mighty nice of the owners to encourage you to engage in behavior that might result in your butt being parked in a jail cell. Will they be footing the bill for your training, your attorney fees, any potential physiological repercussions of killing another human? Learn the laws of your state and make decisions based solely on what is best for you and your family.
Originally Posted by Droolsport
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations” – James Madison 1788
September 22nd, 2012 07:57 AM
Best answer I saw. Called into question some of Suntzu's comments which I found a little "yes and no". I consider myself a "reasonable person" and when, as Bill Mo says, a firearm is pointed at me, I am not about to wonder whether this situation is one of those "where no one gets hurt", as Suntzu said----I AM IN IMMINENT DANGER OF DEATH OR GREAT BODILY INJURY and will act decisively; I think, however, that I understand Suntzu's statement but its real intent is not quite that simple, IMO. A gun is pointed at me and I might not have a problem? My instant reaction, however, has a lot to do with the specific situation----crowds, hostages, scenario etal, which lead to training on your part if it is possible, and using your mental exercises for "what ifs" that can set a groundwork for what you might be able to do or not do within the confines of your particular workspace and its parameters. I sure as heck can tell you that situational awareness gives you a leg up on the intiation of a problem, whether it is in the pharmacy or anywhere else, and if someone points a firearm at me and I have an opportunity to do something about it, I most certainly will. This is so easy sitting here on my computer--hope all you and I and the rest of us do is just write this stuff and never have to live any of it. These days being a pharmacist has its share of "danger" and I surely wish you well.
Originally Posted by Bill MO
September 22nd, 2012 09:07 AM
Going to have to call you out on this one. I know that the law varies from State to State, but in general having a gun pointed at you is hands down cause for fear of death/GBH and would justify a shoot. I am not of the "give the robber what he wants and nobody gets hurt" mindset...if a criminal wants to involve deadly weapons then he wins his stupid prize for playing stupid games.
Originally Posted by suntzu
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