Reacting to the Bad Guy - Page 2

Reacting to the Bad Guy

This is a discussion on Reacting to the Bad Guy within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Good post Mike. It is humbling and for those that have trained this way (from the instructor side to the student side to experiencing it ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Good post Mike. It is humbling and for those that have trained this way (from the instructor side to the student side to experiencing it in real life) understand full well when folks tell them "it ain't that easy in real life" it is true.

    I truly wish folks would stop over estimating their abilities or underestimating the BG's abilities and really look hard at what folks say here in this forum. Many have been trained because it is or was our profession. Some, like Mike here takes the time and money to get some real training.

    Watching movies and shooting tin cans or trying to apply what seems like common sense does not apply to real world scenarios. Common sense abut what can happen is seldom true when nerves get involved, stress, adrenaline.

    If folks set the testosterone aside and look dispassionately at scenarios here I think they may learn more. No insult to anyone. There is no one expert on this planet that can not use some humility and utilize more training or advice.

    I have been well trained and still listen everybody's opinion, whether I like them or agree with them or not. Everything in life can be value added.

    Again, good post Mike.
    Last edited by suntzu; September 23rd, 2012 at 09:36 AM.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Good post Mike. It is humbling and for those that have trained this way (from the instructor side to the student side to experiencing it in real life) understand full well when folks tell them "it ain't that easy in real life" it is true.

    I truly wish folks would stop over estimating their abilities or underestimating the BG's abilities and really look hard at what folks say here in this forum. Many have been trained because it is or was our profession. Some, like Mike here takes the time and money to get some real training.

    Watching movies and shooting tin cans or trying to apply what seems like common sense does not apply to real world scenarios. Common sense abut what can happen is seldom true when nerves get involved, stress, adrenaline.

    If folks set the testosterone aside and look dissemination at scenarios here I think they may learn more. No insult to anyone. There is no one expert on this planet that can not use some humility and utilize more training or advice.

    I have been well trained and still listen everybody's opinion, whether I like them or agree with them or not. Everything in life can be value added.

    Again, good post Mike.
    Thanks, and ditto on all you said.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Have you ever performed this exercise as I described it?
    No. Now comes the part where you explain how this training situation is anything more than the human body acting on a stimulus, in this case a visual one. Average reaction time from a visual stimuli is 0.19 sec. That is 0.19 sec. from stimuli to movement,which would be pulling the trigger.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    No. Now comes the part where you explain how this training situation is anything more than the human body acting on a stimulus, in this case a visual one. Average reaction time from a visual stimuli is 0.19 sec. That is 0.19 sec. from stimuli to movement,which would be pulling the trigger.
    Bubba your forgetting about how long it takes the brain to react. This is proof that we need to take the OODA loop serious. It is also proof that action beats reaction....



    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    No. Now comes the part where you explain how this training situation is anything more than the human body acting on a stimulus, in this case a visual one. Average reaction time from a visual stimuli is 0.19 sec. That is 0.19 sec. from stimuli to movement,which would be pulling the trigger.
    1. Hand by the BG's side. Does not take any time at all to turn the weapon and fire. Beleive it or not the GG can't remain truly focused the whole time. The GG needs to blink his eyes, breathe, can be distracted enough by the the BG moving his body slightly which will make it easier for the GG to lose concentration. Look at sprinters and swimmers. How many times do they anticipate incorrectly when to get off the blocks or off the platform? They are pro athletes and are witing for a stimuli and still they have different reaction times.

    2. We have done similiar scenarios in training. Do not know what the purpose of Mike's was. We did it for new guys that got past assessment. The exercise was to reinforce getting off the X while firing.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array Dennis1209's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    It is a proven fact that it takes longer to react then to act. That is why it is always good to seek cover, while simultaneously challenging the subject. That was the only thing I dislike about old westerns, they reinforce a lot of bad tactics.
    Yep, times have changed. Think about how "stupid" it was to line up side by side on the battle field against your opponent < 100 yards apart, firing at each other, standing and reloading your black powder rifle being shot at?
    I think, therefore I am...

    <the Menace>

  7. #22
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    I learned many years ago as a wrestler and a fighter to BE FIRST.




    For those that have never heard the expression it means to attack first, get off the X first, punch them in the face first or, more simply, act before the other guy acts.

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Bubba your forgetting about how long it takes the brain to react. This is proof that we need to take the OODA loop serious. It is also proof that action beats reaction.



    No doubt that action beats reaction up until the point that the action takes longer than the reaction.


    In this case the GG has his gun drawn and aimed. The BG has to move his gun from the low position, somewhat aim, and fire. The GG has to simply squeeze when he percieves a twitch by the BG.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    In this case the GG has his gun drawn and aimed. The BG has to move his gun from the low position, somewhat aim, and fire. The GG has to simply squeeze when he percieves a twitch by the BG.
    Watch the last five minutes of yeagers video. You will see what Im talking about. The GG is Mike, when the BG raises his weapon Mike has to go thru an OODA loop. Thats what this exercise is all about. Its about 1.5 seconds for anyone to make that decision.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Watch the last five minutes of yeagers video. You will see what Im talking about. The GG is Mike, when the BG raises his weapon Mike has to go thru an OODA loop. Thats what this exercise is all about. Its about 1.5 seconds for anyone to make that decision.
    This is where we disagree. When the BG starts his action all the GG has to do is squeeze. He already knows what he's going to do.

    Now before we start with the "what ifs" remember what the original scenario was.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    This is where we disagree. When the BG starts his action all the GG has to do is squeeze. He already knows what he's going to do.

    Now before we start with the "what ifs" remember what the original scenario was.
    Im not playing "what ifs" and I know you are not. Im just telling you why the scenario worked as it did.....Its not something that can be argued, it is the bodies response to a stressful situation...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis1209 View Post
    Yep, times have changed. Think about how "stupid" it was to line up side by side on the battle field against your opponent < 100 yards apart, firing at each other, standing and reloading your black powder rifle being shot at?
    I am just glad I lived past the stupid thing in my youth.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    This is where we disagree. When the BG starts his action all the GG has to do is squeeze. He already knows what he's going to do.

    Now before we start with the "what ifs" remember what the original scenario was.
    That is the problem. You have to SEE the move, You have to RECOGNIZE the move, and you have to REACT to the move. If that takes .19 of a second longer than the BG YOU LOSE.

    Its all about realizing our weaknesses, we are not always on top of our game, some days are better than others. Whenever I responded to a call with an armed subject my first response was to get cover. Then from a position of advantage I would challenge the subject, when they go thru their OODA loop and see they are at a tremendous disadvantage, a sane person will surrender.

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Go here Human Benchmark - Home and try the reaction time test.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Go here Human Benchmark - Home and try the reaction time test.
    Never Mind...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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