Camp ground hassles!

This is a discussion on Camp ground hassles! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Letting some punk azz drunk run you out of the campsite is a crock of baloney.The LAW is on your side. Laws aren't worth the ...

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Thread: Camp ground hassles!

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Letting some punk azz drunk run you out of the campsite is a crock of baloney.The LAW is on your side.
    Laws aren't worth the paper they're written on, in a tactical defense situation with as fragile of a perimeter as a camp tent.

    A tent is an amazingly soft target, with multiple perps that know exactly where you are, know when you're sleeping, are able to come at you from multiple directions at once. All they need is chutzpah and arms. Bad situation.

    Only way to avoid is: either be armed and vigilant throughout the time near them; or, leave.

    The trip at that campground was already ruined, yes. I'd probably have found another campground, if one were within 10mi distance. I'm all for not ruining the entire outing ... just not at that one campground with those folks in a tactically fragile situation.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  3. #17
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    You are quite correct ccw9mm. A tent is a soft target.

    Only way to avoid is: either be armed and vigilant throughout the time near them; or, leave.
    Most people that frequent this board would be armed at all times and those that are'nt might learn enough to go armed eventually.

    While one could imagine the absloute worst scenario, its quite possible that the two were just stupid drunks that wanted to warn about their dog. No harm done in that. The fact that they did so was a good thing.

    Its quite possible that the drunks were stupid drunks, but innocent drunks. They probably meant no harm and it us up to the camper to determine that. The only way to determine that is with a good clear dialogue that leaves neither party guessing as to any intentions.

    If I would have left my campsite everytime a few drunks got loud or beligerant I'd have spent more time on the road than I would camping. Since the campsites are few and far between here it aint happening. Sometimes you just have to confront trouble. Sure it might not be comfortable to do so, but if someone is too scared to do that, perhaps carrying a gun may not be right for them either...because if you ever have to actually USE it, the word scared wont do the situation justice.
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  4. #18
    Member Array timothius's Avatar
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    I really appreciate everyone's comments. TIcarry asked what I was looking for. I think that I am looking for a debriefing type of thing from all of your comments. I have gotten a lot and like you I don't agree with them all, but that what makes it all interesting.

    A few things that are a given in that geographic area. 1, It was a 90 minute drive to town to use a phone. Cell phones don't work in most of that area. I am a Ham operator and could not even get into our local repeator. So calling Forest personel or sheriff wasn't a real option. 2, After the guys comments agbout wanting to sniff my wifes crotch I didn't feel that there was any possibility of meaningful dialogue with either of these guys, and it would have only escalated into an worse situation, and these are hardly innocent drunken comments. These boys had the potential to be very bad. 3, My wife was frightened and frankly I was nervous. It would not have been a pleasant evening even if we had eventually worked things out.

    I carry 100 percent of the time, but while in the woods I openly carry because I don't want to have to shift gear around to get a concealed weapon. I feel that my openly carrying either pushed the drunk to see how I would react to his absurd comments, or helped to keep it at a lower level? I know the other guy left after seeing the weapon. Do any of you think that carrying concealed would have made a difference and how?

    Tim

  5. #19
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    Do any of you think that carrying concealed would have made a difference and how?
    Concealed may have allowed things to go further more easily and for longer - until perhaps you might have had to show the holstered piece to demonstrate your armed status and not being a ready victim - had they had an attack in mind.

    Probably the open carry status was helpful in this situation.
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  6. #20
    Member Array My73LT's Avatar
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    You did right..

    I think that given what you told us, you did the correct thing. If the BG was willing to mouth off, even with a weapon showing, you were headed for a showdown of some type : Verbal, physical, or worse. Any confrontation would have only escalated the problem. Assuming you chased him off, how long would he stay gone ? Would he nurse a grudge all night, working up his courage to do something about it ? Did he have his own gun packed away at his camp site ? What was his buddy doing ? Also, given the fact that you were an hour ot two from even making cell phone contact, a LEO of any stripe was a good ways off. There were too many variables.

    Having the gun out, IMO and what you've shared, at least seems to have encoruaged the first guy to leave. Whether it was to go get his own gun, or clear the area because he knew his idiot friend was going to stir up some trouble. I think you initially saved yourself a boat load of trouble by wearing openly. Leaving, at bare minmum, saved you a good nights sleep. Maybe more. I would not have felt safe, and neither would my wife.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Ti Carry's Avatar
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    The first guy could have left to load up while the other making all the comments was the distraction. Did anyone think about that?

    HotGuns,

    If memory serves me correctly you are a LEO! Civies have to do things like going to court to explain our actions. LEO's many times will get the benefit of the doubt if this thing got out of hand and went to do or die. Being a LEO you possibly have that option. Being a civilian we will get, why didn't you just leave to avoid the situation?, or, you must have been looking for a fight staying?, You had your gun exposed on your hip and ready, is that right Mr. Ti Carry? or, or, while all the time in custody and having to get a lawyer.

    In Missouri at this time I must attempt a retreat, so leaving before it got more out of hand is the best option in this case. Calling people out for not standing up to drunk's at a camp site is bad advice, YOU CAN NOT REASON WITH A DRUNK. A liberal jury will use everything they can to defend the poor defenseless drunk's. I for one am not going to attend that court date. I will use force on force when and only when it is the last option, like if they attempted to try to keep us from leaving or worse. Leaving to avoid a potential confrontation ending in the death of someone possibly you is not at all being scared, it is smart along with being a responsible CCW permit holder.

    Bad advice sir!


    Ti
    Last edited by Ti Carry; October 1st, 2006 at 03:24 PM.
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  8. #22
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    Best advise, de escalate and retreat. If they still come, well , guess the were given every chance to back down. I have no doubt I would have packed up left too.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    +1!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ti Carry View Post
    In Missouri at this time I must attempt a retreat, so leaving before it got more out of hand is the best option in this case. Calling people out for not standing up to drunk's at a camp site is bad advice, YOU CAN NOT REASON WITH A DRUNK. A liberal jury will use everything they can to defend the poor defenseless drunk's. I for one am not going to attend that court date. I will use force on force when and only when it is the last option, like if they attempted to try to keep us from leaving or worse. Leaving to avoid a potential confrontation ending in the death of someone possibly you is not at all being scared, it is smart along with being a responsible CCW permit holder.
    Ti
    Ti Carry, I absolutely concur with you. You cannot "reason" with a DRUNK! A long time ago, when I first got off active duty, I acted as the "Cooler" in charge of a team of Bouncers at a very upscale exclusive Club in Coconut Grove Florida. I didn't know until later that it was a haven for the cream of the crop drug lords for both North & South America. I can't tell you how many fights we broke up and always at closing time (0500) and always over a woman. Once alcohol and sex combines in a small mind that is violence prone to begin with there is GOING to be violence. All you can do is try to limit the scale. You did the right thing and you limited the violence to mere visual reminders of "consequences."
    Last edited by ExSoldier; October 2nd, 2006 at 07:37 AM. Reason: Eliminate "war story" as unnecessary.
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  10. #24
    Member Array CraigJS's Avatar
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    Best to leave. What if drunk number one had decided that he was going to get his own gun and not let anybody push him around? Yes there are times when we'd love to kick someones fanny, but as permit holders many/most of us don't have that option available..
    Rule number 1 in self defence is to avoid trouble if possible.

    Be safe.

  11. #25
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    I feel avoidance is always first. One thing these idiots need to realize is that my wife carries too and shoots as well as I do. If she was in that situation by herself she would no doubt draw her weapon. In Kansas we do not have a retreat law.

  12. #26
    Member Array osanmike's Avatar
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    I would have left also. The trip ia already ruined, and I detest being around drunks. Being in the military and having been all over the world, I have had the displeasure of seeing many normally decent people that I know turn into real idiots after drinking. A lot of them do not even remember what they said or did the night before. Most of them I have seen thought do not become less aggresive and more fun to be around. Better to save yourself the hassle and find a quieter spot while it is earlier in the day, than in the middle of the night.
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  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    I used to to a lot of campground-style camping when the kids were little, but got extremely tired of idiots in the campground. They don't have to be drunk, either. The last time I was in a campground:
    (1) deer wandered through in broad daylight, and the adult idiots in the next spot chased them away,
    (2) a huge RV took the spot on the other side and its crew instantly fired up a generator. No doubt so they could play cards inside in air-conditioned comfort---the epitome of camping for them.

    That stay caused me to do only back-packing camping trips from then on. No idiots have ever camped next to me at 12,000 feet.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation You CAN have both: Mobility and Isolation!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    (2) a huge RV took the spot on the other side and its crew instantly fired up a generator. No doubt so they could play cards inside in air-conditioned comfort---the epitome of camping for them.

    That stay caused me to do only back-packing camping trips from then on. No idiots have ever camped next to me at 12,000 feet.
    Ever since I made my living hauling a 120lb rucksack hither and yon I have hated the concept as recreation! However, I too, enjoy getting places where there are few if any neighbors. That's why MY RV list is short: http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html

    Not cheap.....but not out of sight, either.
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  15. #29
    Senior Moderator
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    The first guy could have left to load up while the other making all the comments was the distraction. Did anyone think about that?
    Yep.
    He could have. He could have done anything.According to the original post, there was no real threat of foul play...just foul words.

    As a part time LEO,I'll admit that I do have a different perspective of things. As one that frequently gets called to a National Forest campsite which is on our general patrol route,I'm well aware of the issues that campers face from various threats.

    As far as I can tell in the orginial post, there was no implied threat. While its true that the words spoken were somewhat course, and less than polite, at the most a heightened state of alert was all that was required.

    I've been in those situations,both as an Officer and a camper. I've been called to campsites where people were drunk,high,agitated,less than friendly,illegal,loud and boisterous and just downright stupid.In most cases, a simple talking to with some mutual understanding was all that it took. In a few cases me showing up resulted in arrest.

    I also understand that campers dont have the options of controlling a situation like I do. While I do think it is wise to carry a gun at any campsite, I also dont think that everyone that walks up to you wants to kill you. Alcohol tends to loosen the inhibitions in most folks. A guy that wouldnt glance your way in a normal situation and is somewhat shy can talk nonstop to someone he's never met when drunk.

    We can what-if this situation forever...so I am just going on what was stated here. A few less than polite words isnt going to make me leave a campsite. The fact that Im carrying a gun isnt even going to be an issue...whether I am acting "officialy" or just out for a nice quite peaceful adventure in camping.. which I do every now and then.

    It just seems to me that most people that are posting responses here are giving up ground way to easily.

    But thats just me.
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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    Know what really yanks my chain with drunks?? The way some get all aggressive when drunk and then after claim - ''oh it wasn't me - it was the drink''.

    Boloney I say - I will NOT excuse anyone's behavior just because of drink. The individual is culpable in whatever state.
    Not trying to pad my ego here, but when I used to drink (left that life behind many years ago), it depended upon what I drank. If it was beer or vodka, I just got drunk. Pour Tequilla down my neck and I was ready to fight anyone in the place. I avoided Tequilla for all it was worth.


    Timothius, I think you did the right thing by leaving. It is what I would have done. I am too old to be wrestling or fighting with anyone.

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