Live to Live

This is a discussion on Live to Live within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Keeping the radar "on" has its benefits. Imagine how much safer and respectful things would be, if 95% of everyone carried and maintained their radar. ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Keeping the radar "on" has its benefits.

    Imagine how much safer and respectful things would be, if 95% of everyone carried and maintained their radar. I'm betting politeness and decency would quickly become common again. Ah, well. If only.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  3. #32
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    Maybe a clarification would be useful about now. Some seem to feel it's a burden or a chore to do all this awareness thing all the time. Maybe for some it would be. It isn't for me - it's more like problem solving, and I really like solving problems. A lot of people do. Think of how many people work crossword puzzles, play chess, etc. - they like to solve problems! I actually find it rewarding every time I can identify a 'real' potential threat and visualize how to deal with it. It's fun.

    Here's a scenario I was in, in one of my Gunsite 5 day handgun classes. We were in a real-life FOF training scenario. Here's the setting: I, and a number of other customers are sitting in a restaurant having a meal. I am instructed to go to the restroom. While in the restroom I hear shouting, so I pie out the door and find all the customers down on their knees with their hands raised. A guy with a gun was threatening to shoot one of the workers and had a gun pointed at him. Of course I was armed and it was soul search time. Do I shoot the BG and hopefully save the cook's life or hide in the bathroom and do nothing and let him shoot the cook?

    Well, I decide it would be hard to live with knowing I just stood there and let someone shoot an innocent person. So I shot the guy and saved the day, except for one minor detail. His buddy, that was down on his knees with his hands raised like everybody else, shot me.

    Now we can argue intervention until the cow's come home and never resolve anything. So let's forgo that and focus on a more resolvable issue - why did I get shot? I asked the instructors what I could have done. They said, if you decided to shoot, why didn't you move to a point where you could see everyone? Instead you shot with yourself exposed to a stranger behind you.

    Sound familiar? It should. Remember the stranger that approached me and my friends while we were eating? I learned from the training and positioned myself appropriately.

    But that example focuses on engagement, the third of the three E's - for reference - Evade, Escape, and Engage.

    Another FOF scenario went like this. We're in the same restaurant. I'm sitting such that I can see all entrances. Unfortunately, some guys are seated on either side of me on a bench seat kind of like a picnic table. Well, note to self, don't get pinned in.

    So this guy comes in ranting about "...where's his no account two-timing, etc., etc. girlfriend that supposed to be working here!!!!!". He slams the club he's carrying down on the table right in front of me and yells "What are you lookin' at?" I'm thinking, "Training, how do I solve this?" So I say, what does she look like. He describes her and I reply that that could have been her that went out the back door with another lady. He yells and takes off to the back door. Well that takes care of Evade, next is Escape. I instruct everyone to go out the front door and get in their cars. So I got everyone out of the place safely without firing a shot. And more importantly to me, I didn't have to do the last 'E', Engage, get shot by his buddy.
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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Tangle...I guess there are some of us that choose to be in an "aware" mode all the time and there are others that choose to "roll the dice"...I really don't consider being in "aware" mode (radar rotating 360) as being in Condition Orange as one poster suggested. It's maintaining a vigilant Condition Yellow...Even when sleeping, I find my radar is in "standby" mode, and NOT turned completely off. If I subconsciously hear a noise that is out of the ordinary in MY home while sleeping, I awaken and the radar is rotating 360...Anyway...I'm in Tangle's corner on this post...Just Sayin...
    ccw9mm likes this.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array lchamp's Avatar
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    Today at lunch, 4 guys and one woman were all carrying (well concealed) and a story was told:

    One of the guys was in a small tourist town out west when a gunfight ensued outside the local bar/saloon. He was immediately on full alert and aware of places to conceal and return fire...then he noticed several tourists coming to watch the 'staged gunfight'. Only later did he go into the bar and see the signs advertising the staged gunfight.

    We discussed the theater shooting in Colorado, when several witnesses thought it was part of a staged entertainment event...

    Colorado was real and the tourist town event was staged. I wonder if anyone would be foolhardy enough, in today's world, to stage an "entertainment event" with hollywood special effects that might cause an unintended reaction by someone with a real gun...

    My friend with the CWL was able to evaluate an unexpected entertainment event quickly, but he had originally let his self defense training set in...

    I was surprised when so many at the table (all close friends) admitted to carrying. And, no, nobody showed his/her gun. Lots of discussion, though.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Tangle: This is half joking and half serious in realtion to this qoute :
    I don't sit with my back to doors in public places. I try to pick a position that is tactically advantageous.
    OK, you are teaching a class to 15 or 20 people about all of the things in your OP. Now, as a group you decide to go to lunch at Denny's. Where do you all sit?

    Don't get me wrong. I do a lot of SA but to me it is natural and I know there are lapses. When I go shopping with the wife I get bored so I walk around looking at security, watching people t see who is carrying and who is not (it really is not hard to tell).
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array lchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    When I go shopping with the wife I get bored so I walk around looking at security, watching people t see who is carrying and who is not (it really is not hard to tell).
    Ah yes, I'm always doing this. I retired after 35 years in the security business.

    I'm probably an easy pick for carry...large shirt not tucked in. I wear the same thing at gun shows (gun in car) and have had people 'accidentally' brush up against me to check for hardware...glad I don't use one of those crotch holsters...

  8. #37
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    The whole don't sit with your back to the door thing has never worked for me. There are windows, emergency exits, service doors, etc in any business I've ever been in. It isn't possible to not have your back to every door. And at times facing the door would mean you're putting your back to a building full of people which to me is worse than not facing the door.

    Being aware and being paranoid don't have to be the same thing. As an example, I went to a steak place for lunch today. I could tell you where the exits were and the best way to get to them within seconds of walking in. I had a rough knowledge of the people inside and where they were sitting. We were seated near the center of the restaurant. I walked in, sat with the front door to my right and the fire exit to my left. The kitchen with service entrance was behind me. Windows surrounded me. That's all I needed to know. I sat down and enjoyed my meal. Three different times during the meal people came up to our table wanting to speak with someone that was in our party. Not once did I change the hand I was holding a drink with, get up to circle behind them, or anything else. I sat and continued enjoying the company I was with and the meal we were having.
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  9. #38
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    Very interesting thread! Lots of things to think about.
    Thanks for sharing.

  10. #39
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    Tangle, thank you. You make some insightful points and this is a very important topic and discussion.

    Col. Cooper once said that once ingrained, living in condition Yellow is not stressful, and I believe that to be true.The key is "ingrained" or assimilated into one's conditioning. Awareness and the concomitant style of living become habits that work for rather than against you. As someone pointed out, the Practicalities go beyond avoiding sudden attack.I would consider "pieing" a corner no more paranoid or stressful than looking further down the road while driving (something many drivers do not do). The same with looking through the glass doors at the supermarket rather than at them.

    Some people just don't want to think about danger, even in the abstract. I'm put in mind of a recent discussion with a friend. He wanted me to leave my car at a centrally located but closed down restaurant while we carpooled to a meeting. I declined because it was an area without much traffic or oversight. He thought it odd which led to a discussion off people buying guns. He remarked that he refused to live in a state of fear. I didn't argue the point and that was that. I hope he never needs to regret that decision.

    Back when I was teaching Women's Self Defense classes I would assign the homework of SA at a number of places the students could reasonably expect to find themselves throughout the week. These were discussed in advance and the point of the exercise was for them to assess their own weaknesses and report back for further discussion at the next class. I even found myself making some changes of my own in response to what I was teaching.

    On a last note, I was taught that self-defense is about more than just physical attack. It is a way of thinking and applies to all aspects of life. If a legal problem can be foreseen and avoided it is better than a legal battle which you win. The same holds true for a financial crisis or in choosing a life partner. Life's problems can be parried just as a blow might be, but it requires that willingness to "look down the road".

    If we can succeed at condition Yellow and Orange, we will likely never need go to condition Red.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    You know what a peephole in a door does? It centers your head on a target point and puts you square in front of the door. Is that really where you want to be?

    All is not lost when you crack the door. Very little of me is exposed. The security door complete with bars is still closed and locked, and yes I expected the security door to all ready be breached as I cracked the door and I was ready to respond to that. The person is in porch light, I'm in the dark. I'm behind 2 x 4's, they're completely unconcealed.

    But let's take the peephole approach and we see a woman with some blood on her screaming her child is in a wrecked car seriously injured. Now what do we do?
    While I dont recommend 'only a peephole,' an understanding of its advantages and limitations gives the homeowner the upper hand. It is better than nothing. Cracking a door or looking thru a window doesnt guarantee no additional bodies in ambush.

    As for the screaming, bleeding woman scenario...we have to plan for that no matter what our 'visual vantage point' is. Dont we?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    . Think of how many people work crossword puzzles, play chess, etc. - they like to solve problems! I actually find it rewarding every time I can identify a 'real' potential threat and visualize how to deal with it. It's fun.
    ??? How many "real potential threats' do you run into? Or perceive? Well, maybe the question is how do you 'verify' that your concern was warranted or your attention justified?

    Sorry, I'm trying to compare this to the way I conduct my own real life SA on a daily basis.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #42
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    9mmare:

    I think what he's saying is that he uses every day people/situations as practice for "real" threats. I do this sometimes as well. If I notice a couple of kids heading towards the gas station while I'm filling up, even after I've decided that they arn't a threat, I'll still ask myself what I would have done if they were. Did I see them as early as I should? Did I park with enough room to get away NOW if I had to etc.

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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    Tangle...I guess there are some of us that choose to be in an "aware" mode all the time and there are others that choose to "roll the dice"...I really don't consider being in "aware" mode (radar rotating 360) as being in Condition Orange as one poster suggested. It's maintaining a vigilant Condition Yellow...Even when sleeping, I find my radar is in "standby" mode, and NOT turned completely off. If I subconsciously hear a noise that is out of the ordinary in MY home while sleeping, I awaken and the radar is rotating 360...Anyway...I'm in Tangle's corner on this post...Just Sayin...
    That's it exactly.
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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazshooter View Post
    9mmare:

    I think what he's saying is that he uses every day people/situations as practice for "real" threats. I do this sometimes as well. If I notice a couple of kids heading towards the gas station while I'm filling up, even after I've decided that they aren't a threat, I'll still ask myself what I would have done if they were. Did I see them as early as I should? Did I park with enough room to get away NOW if I had to etc.
    Exactly what I'm talking about. In the sense described in this quote, we run into a lot of threats. They aren't actual threats, but we think about how we should/would respond it the threat became real.

    There's an old saying, "Be polite and courteous to everyone you meet, but have a plan to kill them." I know that may sound brutal and extreme, but when you think about it, why do we carry a gun in the first place? Not to kill per se, but certainly to shoot someone if we have to. So the question is do we think about it ahead of time or try to make the decision of when and how in the heat of the moment?

    There have been a number of excellent posts by Pistology, CCW9mm, First Sgt, nazshooter, Hoganbeg,
    and others that help to clarify the concept of living in condition yellow. Well worth a second read.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    The whole don't sit with your back to the door thing has never worked for me. There are windows, emergency exits, service doors, etc in any business I've ever been in. It isn't possible to not have your back to every door. And at times facing the door would mean you're putting your back to a building full of people which to me is worse than not facing the door.
    While I am aware of peripheral doors, it is the entrance door(s) I was referring to in my comments. Although, I don't like to put my back to any door, sometimes you have to choose. Emergency exits are an exit, you can't get in through them without defeating the lock. It is rare for a BG to shoot through a window. Service doors are not generally located in the public areas.

    OTOH, if we find ourselves surrounded by doors and windows, that's not an excuse to mindlessly choose to sit with our back to a door.

    It's not always possible to eliminate all potential threats, but we do want to minimize them. BG's historically enter through the main door(s). The purpose of facing the door is early alert.

    Why are the choices limited to - facing the door with a room full of people behind you, or sitting with one's back to the door to watch the room full of people? Why not sit behind the people and have a visual of the door?

    There is an important point here too. It would be more accurate for me to say I don't sit with my back to a door than it would be to say I sit facing the door. One can sit such that they have a visual on the door(s). I.e. the doors may be within a 45° angle or so to you. At one place I eat, one door is 90° to me, the other is straight ahead. That still fulfills not sitting with my back to a door(s).

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    ...Being aware and being paranoid don't have to be the same thing. As an example, I went to a steak place for lunch today. I could tell you where the exits were and the best way to get to them within seconds of walking in. I had a rough knowledge of the people inside and where they were sitting. We were seated near the center of the restaurant. I walked in, sat with the front door to my right and the fire exit to my left. The kitchen with service entrance was behind me. Windows surrounded me. That's all I needed to know. I sat down and enjoyed my meal.
    Paranoia is relative. E.g. how many people in the restaurant even had a thought to assess and respond to your assessment as you did? Most, if not all, just walked in, completely unaware, and sat down somewhere almost at random. If you described what you did in this case to most Americans, don't you think they would kind of think you are a bit paranoid, or do you think they would think that is perfectly normal behavior? Oh, don't forget to mention that you carry a gun on you at all times. Now they 'know' you are paranoid.

    But in CCW circles, such things are not paranoia, they are preventive and protective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    ...Three different times during the meal people came up to our table wanting to speak with someone that was in our party. Not once did I change the hand I was holding a drink with, get up to circle behind them, or anything else. I sat and continued enjoying the company I was with and the meal we were having.
    And if you did choose to change hands, would it have ruined your meal or made it any less enjoyable? The real issue here is did you assess or just ignore the events as they developed. E.g. if a rough looking guy had wandered up to your table, and started a puzzling conversation to nobody in particular at your table, would you have reacted the same way?

    There's a lot of difference in a person approaching someone in your party that they know and a complete stranger to everyone walking up and trying to start an unrelated conversation.

    It really doesn't a meal or cause one to enjoy a meal less to respond to a potential threat, if not threat, a stranger with unknown intents.

    Let me ask this, if you were approached by a stranger on the street and he extended his hand in a gesture to shake your hand, would you shake hands with him? Would you be content to remain facing the same way while he tried to keep your attention?

    The same thing in a restaurant. A complete stranger walks up and starts talking about something puzzling; would you respond?
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