Unarmed with active shooter, two exits

This is a discussion on Unarmed with active shooter, two exits within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy Sorry but I have to change your scenario slightly. Why in the world would I choose to sit in the front ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Sorry but I have to change your scenario slightly.

    Why in the world would I choose to sit in the front row with my back towards everyone else in the room? Since I wouldn't do this, this is the part of the scenario I have to change.

    You should place yourself and your family in a position where you can best observe the entire room while also having access to an exit.

    I'd be sitting in the back row with my back against the wall where I'd have several of those moving shields in front of me and my family. When the shooter enters, we are staying low to the ground, we are holding hands, we are moving quickly, we are heading towards the exit while hugging the back wall...I'm going to have to assume that in this scenario there will be several people who will be running for the same door who will be between me and the shooter. Hopefully we survive the first round of fire. When the shooter goes to reload, we move as fast as possible to the door with me between the shooter and my family. My blade is out by this point. My family goes through the doorway first. I am last to leave. If I have to charge the shooter so my family can get out then that is what I do. If I make it to the shooter, hopefully there is an opportunity for me to make an immediate kill move with my blade. If not, I go for control of his weapon first and the kill second.
    I disagree. Armed or not, I will try to sit exactly where the three featured in the diagram are sitting, so we can be first to gtfod if a scenario like the one described does go down. With an active shooter, the first and fastest ones out the exit are the ones least likely to be shot.
    "Who are the ones that we kept in charge? Killers, thieves, and lawyers"

    Tom Waits, God's Away on Business

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Sorry but I have to change your scenario slightly.

    Why in the world would I choose to sit in the front row with my back towards everyone else in the room? Since I wouldn't do this, this is the part of the scenario I have to change.
    ...
    You have a point if all seating is floor level. OTOH, if it's fold out bleachers, I would want to be on the floor level.

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Sorry but I have to change your scenario slightly.

    Why in the world would I choose to sit in the front row with my back towards everyone else in the room? Since I wouldn't do this, this is the part of the scenario I have to change.

    You should place yourself and your family in a position where you can best observe the entire room while also having access to an exit.

    I'd be sitting in the back row with my back against the wall where I'd have several of those moving shields in front of me and my family. When the shooter enters, we are staying low to the ground, we are holding hands, we are moving quickly, we are heading towards the exit while hugging the back wall...I'm going to have to assume that in this scenario there will be several people who will be running for the same door who will be between me and the shooter. Hopefully we survive the first round of fire. When the shooter goes to reload, we move as fast as possible to the door with me between the shooter and my family. My blade is out by this point. My family goes through the doorway first. I am last to leave. If I have to charge the shooter so my family can get out then that is what I do. If I make it to the shooter, hopefully there is an opportunity for me to make an immediate kill move with my blade. If not, I go for control of his weapon first and the kill second.
    No you can not change the scenario When I was going through my training in the army you did not stop and tell the cadre during a hostage rescue scenario "wait...this is not how I like it...lets change it"

    Besides, there are times you can be forced into a situation where you do not control sitting. Weddings, graduations, a million other things. People can be faced with situations that are difficult. That is the point of this. Or is this an easier one:

    You are sitting in the back of a room, no one near you and you are next to an emergencey exit. You armed with 2 Glock 19's and a sig 228. 30 rows in front of you a guy comes out with a bow and arrow. What do you do?
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    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
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  5. #34
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    First Sgt brought up a good point. Updated drawing:Attachment 63629
    I think the doors would be hinged on the side away from the outer door, just a side note.

    If the MWG decided to do harm, wouldn't he be more likely to come in the door nearest the outer door? If he is part of the presentation, he would be more likely to come in the door you have him coming in, but what would he be doing with a rifle (or facsimile) in a school?

    No matter. Can't afford to think anything but that he intends a massacre.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillep Harding View Post
    I think the doors would be hinged on the side away from the outer door, just a side note.

    If the MWG decided to do harm, wouldn't he be more likely to come in the door nearest the outer door? If he is part of the presentation, he would be more likely to come in the door you have him coming in, but what would he be doing with a rifle (or facsimile) in a school?

    No matter. Can't afford to think anything but that he intends a massacre.
    Nope, that is how the place it iset up.

    On a side note, a scenario is a situation one is given and needs to deal with it. Who would have thought the guy in Aurora would have came in AND out of an emergencey exit. We had very difficult scenarios in my previous life. They were made to be difficult. You did not try to rationalize the scenario by saying "why would they come in this way". You just dealt with it because that is how life is: unpredictable.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    No you can not change the scenario When I was going through my training in the army you did not stop and tell the cadre during a hostage rescue scenario "wait...this is not how I like it...lets change it"

    Besides, there are times you can be forced into a situation where you do not control sitting. Weddings, graduations, a million other things. People can be faced with situations that are difficult. That is the point of this. Or is this an easier one:

    You are sitting in the back of a room, no one near you and you are next to an emergencey exit. You armed with 2 Glock 19's and a sig 228. 30 rows in front of you a guy comes out with a bow and arrow. What do you do?
    Sorry, but the SIG ain't happening.
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    "Who are the ones that we kept in charge? Killers, thieves, and lawyers"

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Sorry, but the SIG ain't happening.
    You been to F on F training and other training...ever tell an instructor "wait..I don't like this scenario, lets do it my way?"
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    You been to F on F training and other training...ever tell an instructor "wait..I don't like this scenario, lets do it my way?"
    I have yet to have one say, "Here, use my SIG". But for the purpose of this exercise, I would leave the SIG holstered.
    "Who are the ones that we kept in charge? Killers, thieves, and lawyers"

    Tom Waits, God's Away on Business

  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Sig, Glock or Hi Point in a life or death situation and you being the weapon you better know how to use whatever tool you have in your hand. In this case it could only be the pen in your shirt pocket. Some say if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. But if all I have is a hammer and I need a board made shorter, then know how to make it work. Same is true here use what you have or don't have. But stay alive long enough to kill the SOB.

    No matter what you start to do you may have to change once he reacts. How good are you at changing your plan of action in mid stream?
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    No you can not change the scenario When I was going through my training in the army you did not stop and tell the cadre during a hostage rescue scenario "wait...this is not how I like it...lets change it"

    Besides, there are times you can be forced into a situation where you do not control sitting. Weddings, graduations, a million other things. People can be faced with situations that are difficult. That is the point of this. Or is this an easier one:

    You are sitting in the back of a room, no one near you and you are next to an emergencey exit. You armed with 2 Glock 19's and a sig 228. 30 rows in front of you a guy comes out with a bow and arrow. What do you do?
    Shall we say that my last solution to the Kobayashi Maru was, "unique".

    Since you are in control of me and have placed me directly in front of the shooter and are telling me to take control from that moment forward, then there are no options for me to choose from. We have to assume that the moment you say that I am in control of my own action that the shooter will enter and shoot the first target in front of him, which is me (remember, you already told us that he does not shoot the speaker). Since you did not give me superpowers and I am not faster than a speeding bullet, the first bullet(s) out of the gun will hit me because you placed me directly in front of the muzzle and you also made me the closest target to the muzzle.

    Is there an amendment to your scenario that you would like to include which would result in options being made available to me?

    I do understand that there are lessons to be learned from playing out different options in a no win situation like the Kobayashi Maru. But, unlike the Kobayashi Maru, your scenario does not allow the participant to actually participate because you have removed the options by placing the participant in front of a bullet which will be fired when the scenario starts.

    Ready, Set, Go!
    Bang!
    Your dead.
    Scenario over.
    Regards,
    1MoreGoodGuy
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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillep Harding View Post
    Dumbest thing to do is to charge him, throwing what ever is at hand. Therefore you should scream "Airborne!" at the top of your lungs while doing it.

    Or "Aloha snack bar".
    I'd rather make myself a target and increase the odds of my wife and daughter escaping, than run with my family increasing my odds, but decreasing theirs.

    I would never yell "Aloha Snackbar!" because I'd be afraid that one of you gun-toting yokels would be illegally carrying and mistake me for a terrorist.

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post
    I'd rather make myself a target and increase the odds of my wife and daughter escaping, than run with my family increasing my odds, but decreasing theirs.

    I would never yell "Aloha Snackbar!" because I'd be afraid that one of you gun-toting yokels would be illegally carrying and mistake me for a terrorist.
    Yelling something, anything, as you charge draws attention to yourself, improving the odds the dependents will get clear. "Airborne" was only half joking, there might be someone with special forces back ground to join the charge.

    "Aloha Snackbar" has the potential to disorient the MWG, depending on his religious affiliation, but I frankly don't see why some "gun toting yokel" would shoot at someone running away from him toward the MWG under these conditions. To rescue the intruder? In any event, someone screaming that shake people out of the shock of surprise and get them moving. Your dependents will be toward the front of the escaping mob, provided they don't go into a "daddy is being dumb again" mindset ("Thank you, Hollywood"). You don't want them to be the only ones headed for the door or they become the first targets.

    "Gun-toting yokels"?

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    The buliding an layout is real. And most of us woould not purposley put ourselves in a position like this. But imagine that the same gym is used for athletic events. In that case the bleachers are fold outs and they are on the right side of the diagram. Or if there was a awards ceremony for kids for whatever (which they do there). Or if they have a play? The put a stage against the wall where the closets are.

    It is sort of a Kobayashi Maru scenario depending how it were t play out. Even if armed, if yyou did not take the BG down and folks start fleeing (to the only exit) you might not even have a chance to shoot because of all the folks runniing.

    And for folks say they won't go to a place set up like this if it is posted, would you feel the same way if your child was getting an award or performing in a play?
    Still wouldn't be there. One of the perks of being single with no kids. I don't have to worry about sporting events, plays, or award ceremonies for kids. I have more of a chance of being shot by neighbors than I do of this happening.

  15. #44
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    How about yelling "Fire, everyone out!" create a panic the bad guy hadn't planned for?

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillep Harding View Post
    Yelling something, anything, as you charge draws attention to yourself, improving the odds the dependents will get clear. "Airborne" was only half joking, there might be someone with special forces back ground to join the charge.

    "Aloha Snackbar" has the potential to disorient the MWG, depending on his religious affiliation, but I frankly don't see why some "gun toting yokel" would shoot at someone running away from him toward the MWG under these conditions. To rescue the intruder? In any event, someone screaming that shake people out of the shock of surprise and get them moving. Your dependents will be toward the front of the escaping mob, provided they don't go into a "daddy is being dumb again" mindset ("Thank you, Hollywood"). You don't want them to be the only ones headed for the door or they become the first targets.

    "Gun-toting yokels"?
    We're all "gun-toting yokels". I meant it affectionately. ;)

    Maybe it's unfair profiling, but speaking for myself - if in the middle of a terrorist incident, I hear someone yelling "Allahu Akbar" or anything similar in the middle of the chaos, I'm more likely to assume they are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

    So you believe yelling something silly may disorient the BG, but whipping a folding chair at him won't have an affect? We'll have to agree to disagree.

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