Originally Posted by Pperseid99
I'm male, but about your size. My strongest recommendation is that you see martial arts/hand to hand training to escape such a hold. This will serve you to escape and evade the attacker, then create enough distance (more than two arms' length away) to draw and fire your handgun if necessary.
Learning to fight H2H and CQB/CQC is vital, since most attacks happen in close range, not at a distance. Look into both martial arts or MMA training, as well as CQC training for combative/defensive handgun.
As to the best way to carry for this, I see it being appendix carry. But there is a lot you have to know about the situation as to just what you can do and the best way to fight the attack off.
This is one of those times Roger Phillips quote comes into play "SITUATIONS DICTATE STRATEGIES, STRATEGIES DICTATE TACTICS, AND TACTICS DICTATE TECHNIQUES." You learn what all that is needed by training. For your situation two classes I'd recommend are Suarez International classes, first one is a advanced class. So you would need to train in other classes to be able to take this...
Suarez International 0 to 5 Feet Pistol Gunfighting
There is no prerequisites for this one..
Suarez International USA, Inc. - Fundamentals of H2H Combatives
I work in a prison and we are trained that in this situation to use the heel of our foot and drag it down his/her shin bone. Very painful. I wouldn't recommend a gun in this situation atleast until you are out of the rear hold.
exactly, rake shin, slam heel into top of adversary's foot, also head strike to his nose if his head is close enough. Elbow to the stomach loosens em up at the same time as well. Many ways to break that.
Originally Posted by jryan630
If they hve you in a bear hug, there are alternate ways to escape that after hitting the shin and foot, too. It's just a matter of training for these types of situations till you can do it without thought.
As the others have suggested ...
Originally Posted by Pperseid99
In the situation you describe, having already been taken unawares and "locked" to the point of inability to access a weapon, then position of your firearm isn't your greatest concern. Getting clear of your attacker is. Having your gun holstered at, say, 3 o'clock instead of SOB isn't gonna help.
For me, having concealment is the first step, to avoid it being specifically targeted for being taken from me. Beyond that, utterly explosive, violent and decisive H2H type skills are most useful. Might well involve just a kick in the chest/hip area to gain distance, or it might involve having to break a lock (as you describe), break bones/ligaments.
I'd suggest a CQB (close quarters battle) type defensive course or two. With such training, you'll learn a few reasonably effective means of breaking such holds and responding effectively, as well as answers to some of the other questions that apply (very likely, including the one you've asked here).
Appendix carry would have the same basic effect. Shoot foot or leg.
Originally Posted by pgrass101
It will work if you have trained for this situation, but it's something I never really thought about until we covered it in a class.
If the person snuck up behind you and did nothing more than that is it possible it's just a friend horsing around with you?
As others have mentioned firearm isn't always the answer. Others have mentioned most of the options you have including the shin rake, stomp on a foot with your heal, head bunt. My first option is exactly the same technique demonstrated in the video stevern174 posted from youtube. One thing the guy does in the video that he doesn't mention when teaching is lower your base or base out to lower his center of gravity. This is to avoid being picked up off of the ground. Once you are picked up off of the ground the defense becomes much more difficult. In addition, you want to stay on your feet and avoid going to the ground if at all possible. I love South Narc's approach of making sure you avoid being knocked out and/or knocked down when the fight is initiated. If either of those happen your fight just got a lot harder.
As for the firearm, IF you are able to clear your garment and somehow get a positive grip on the gun, (very hard to do in a physical struggle even if you can get to the gun) there is a technique out there where you can shoot someone with your back to them which rounds will generally go into the lower extremities or lower torso. But again, if you can't get that positive grip on the gun it is very risky to even try bringing it into the fight. There would be a good chance the gun could end up on the ground.
Besidea a knife or gun if you can break the hold and have a can of pepper spray on your belt a shot in the attackers face may give you the advantage to get enough distance to draw without giving him an opportunity to disarm you before you can get any shots off
I'm going to suggest that this type of attack is almost always done by someone who wants to
dominate and humiliate, and set up a sexual assault. It may move from the grab to being pulled along
by your hair and taken where you don't want to go. It is imperative that you learn to break free from
the type of holds these creeps use, and learn to make distance and time to deploy some sort of weapon --be it
pepper, knife, or gun. Or, if you are willing to train, to learn how to move from that hold to a situation
in which your attacker end up with broken fingers and a dislocated shoulder.
It is not hard to learn these things. But you can't get it from video. However, if you have a girlfriend or
trusted male companion (spouse), you can look at the pics here -- "Complete Krav Maga" Whitmn and Levine,
and very carefully and slowly play with them.
Shockwave and others already wrote about basing out. No one has yet mentioned that you can simultaneously
shove your backside into your attacker to force some space between you, and throw your arms upward (which will
take your attackers arms up as well). The combo of dropping your weight, smashing your butt into the attacker, and
raising your arms, if done with speed and violence should get you into a
situation where you have several additional options which can inflict severe damage on the attacker--only an MA type instructor can show you how to proceed.
And remember, G-d gave you elbows and finger nails for a reason.
I'm glad you're thinking through now OP. That puts you ahead of a lot of other folks that think a firearm is all they need to make them safe. :hand10:
I like the AIWB position for CC because it does give you the most control & protection in a hth situation. But, like others have said a handgun may not always be the way to go.
In this instance, a handgun needs to be the last line of defense. If you find yourself in a hth situation you really need to deal with that first. Otherwise, you will end up in a wrestling match for your gun. I think you need to keep your firearm "secure" until you can deflect, counter & create some distance in the situation you described. Once you break free, drawing & using a firearm may be in order; if the attack is still ongoing.
I'm a Judo instructor & we teach various methods to escape this situation.
Going limp can also create an opening for a counter attack, as most who attack in this manner are expecting some resistant response, so going limp can open up space because its unexpected. Every situation is different, so h2h training(even basics) is a must IMO. If you only have a hammer in the toolbox, every problem starts to look like a nail. As others have said, if this is a specific threat you feel likely, find a Krav class or self defense class in your area and train, with ppl of different sizes, strength, skill level and find what works best for you. If your arms are somewhat mobile and able to reach behind you, take the weak hand and grab, twist and pull the "berries" with as much intensity as possible.
Agree. Just thought of something I think has not been mentioned. Sometimes the perpetrator of an attack
Originally Posted by mulle46
like this will try to lock his hand together in front hoping to prevent you from moving his arms. Depending on just
how things are positions and the exact situation, you might be able to grab and break a finger or grab a thumb (or a finger, or
the entire wrist) and manipulate his arm in a way that will either take him up on his toes or down to the ground.
Unfortunately you can't teach that to yourself from a book or a video. You need a competent SD instructor.
Caution, there are a lot of incompetent ones out there just trying to make a few bucks. The good ones
tend to be well mannered gentlemanly and low key. The bad ones try to make their classes into
One suggestion would be to get that Levine-Krav book I mentioned earlier, and be sure your instructor follows
the curriculum; or covers what is in the curriculum.
And a final note, what you see on MMA TV ain't self defense. The sports rules prohibit the use of the dangerous stuff
that needs to get into play in a real world "my life depends on this working" situation.
This isn't directed at the OP or anyone else here, just a general observation.
Originally Posted by Hopyard
One of the things I find odd in our society is that people seem to be more willing to shoot someone in self defense than they are to physically hurt someone in self defense.
I am not talking about people that have physical limitations etc. I mean, it is like shooting an attacker in self defense is thought of as more "humane" or "civilized" than digging the eyeballs out of the same attacker. IMO we need to be comfortable with violence of action and be willing to do anything with whatever it takes to survive the attack.
I think it's more a matter now that a lot of people aren't comfortable going hands-on anymore, as society has become less physical. Fewer and fewer people are used to physical fights/contact. Firearms keep the distance. In my case, I had to unlearn some of the h2h I learned in the military when I started in LE, as LE use of force is different than military, although there is overlap of techniques that apply to both.
Originally Posted by stevem174