Restaurant Shooting

This is a discussion on Restaurant Shooting within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Thank you all for the great discussion. It gives me a little hope that there are people out there who take CC very seriously. The ...

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Thread: Restaurant Shooting

  1. #31
    New Member Array joeyturtle's Avatar
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    Great discussion

    Thank you all for the great discussion. It gives me a little hope that there are people out there who take CC very seriously. The accounts that I am describing were given to me from some of the kids my daughter knew who were at the scene. One of those kids gave CPR to the victim. None of them felt they were in danger.

    I agree with the majority in this case - I would have secured my family and observed the BG. In the case of this shooter, he got into an argument, pulled his gun and shot the person he was arguing with. The victim in this case was a customer at the restaurant. No others were hurt and he indeed turned and ran out after the shots were fired. Fortunately for the other patrons, besides a scare and a conversation topic for the rest of their lives, no one else was hurt or in danger. The BG wanted out and no one tried to stop him.

    I believe that my duty as a CCW holder that I need to carry at all times and be vigilant but that I can not be the judge, jury and executioner. I believe that we have to walk that fine line between protection and vigilantism. If threatened I must respond. The grey area is if a BG is threatening or in the process of leaving. Like most of you said, a response depends on the situation.
    LaraCroft10 likes this.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaraCroft10 View Post
    In this particular situation, it sounds like there's not much you can do. Now, you ARE legally justified to use deadly force in a defense situation if he is infringing upon the lives of others. So if he was "executing innocent people", yeah, I might try to get a good vantage point and take him out. But it's not your DUTY. If it's too risky - you do whatever you need to to protect yourself first and foremost. But in the OP's situation, sounds like he was out the door before you could really register what happened. I would not shoot if the dude was leaving the establishment. Get in a safe area and call 911 ASAP.


    Good advice

  4. #33
    Member Array CPanther95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Excuse me? Someone using their brain and having the confidence and presecend of mind to not point it into a "general direction" should not carry a gun?
    Sir, did it occur to you you can un holster your weapon WITHOUT pointing it in a "general direction" that would draw attention to yourself?
    Yes, when the bullets start flying, my gun will be pointed at the shooter so if he comes close to pointing his weapon at my family, I can get a shot off - at least until we are behind adequate cover. And no, I don't care what "folks" may mistake my actions for - especially the shooter.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    You are right about one thing...some folks should re think about carrying a gun until they get more training.
    Your welcome for the advice - training is a never-ending endeavor. I hope you are encouraged, not discouraged.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post
    Yes, when the bullets start flying, my gun will be pointed at the shooter so if he comes close to pointing his weapon at my family, I can get a shot off - at least until we are behind adequate cover. And no, I don't care what "folks" may mistake my actions for - especially the shooter.



    Your welcome for the advice - training is a never-ending endeavor. I hope you are encouraged, not discouraged.
    The first part: You are now changing what you said. Now it is at the shooter, before it was in the general direction. My comments were reflective of that.

    The second part: I was not talking about you but folks in general. I was agreeing with what you posted earlier which I assumed was not sarcasric.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Some of my thoughts on what you are posting.



    Quote Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post
    First: If I wanted to keep my family safe, I wouldn't be with them at a Mexican restaurant unless we were leaving in separate vehicles.

    Second: At the first gunshot, my weapon would be un-holstered and pointed in the general direction of the shooter before seeking cover - then I'd do the best I could to get my family and myself to cover without taking my eyes off the shooter. I see you bring your gun into sight of the shooter forcing him to take action on you and maybe others, even if he had not planned to do so. With your gun being shown he now is feeling threatened by you, you just up the anti.

    That's not out of a desire to engage the shooter, it would be more because I know my fear of being exposed would be less than my fear of missing that crucial split second where the shooter decides to turn and target anyone in my family (or myself). I can see drawing your gun so it is in hand but there are ways to do so and still keep it out of sight of at least the BG.

    Drawing the gun the way you posted is to only draw fire to you and your family. (My thoughts only)
    My thoughts on the use of a firearm is if you draw and show it is to use. Yes had I been there I could and would have most likely drawn my gun, a gun in hand is faster than one in holster, but I would have keep it hidden.
    suntzu likes this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    I see you bring your gun into sight of the shooter forcing him to take action on you and maybe others, even if he had not planned to do so. With your gun being shown he now is feeling threatened by you, you just up the anti.
    This is a case where the BG has already shot someone right in front of you. You can't up the anti any higher without going all-in anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    My thoughts on the use of a firearm is if you draw and show it is to use. Yes had I been there I could and would have most likely drawn my gun, a gun in hand is faster than one in holster, but I would have keep it hidden.
    1) Some say don't draw until you are ready to fire.

    2) You say you can draw, but don't show it until you are ready to fire.

    3) I said I'd draw and point at the shooter and shoot as soon as he came close to starting to bring his gun anywhere close to me, or my family. ("general direction" was only said because I can't envision holding a sight picture while trying to get my family out of their seating and behind adequate shelter).

    IMO, I consider all 3 valid options depending on the scenario. In this case, I'd agree with you as soon as I saw someone threatening someone nearby with a gun. Where I cross over to #3 is at the point that the BG starts shooting people. Once he starts shooting, I don't trust my ability to get a gun off my lap under the table quicker than he can turn and decide to target my family.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post
    This is a case where the BG has already shot someone right in front of you. You can't up the anti any higher without going all-in anyway.
    1) Some say don't draw until you are ready to fire.

    2) You say you can draw, but don't show it until you are ready to fire.

    3) I said I'd draw and point at the shooter and shoot as soon as he came close to starting to bring his gun anywhere close to me, or my family. ("general direction" was only said because I can't envision holding a sight picture while trying to get my family out of their seating and behind adequate shelter).

    IMO, I consider all 3 valid options depending on the scenario. In this case, I'd agree with you as soon as I saw someone threatening someone nearby with a gun. Where I cross over to #3 is at the point that the BG starts shooting people. Once he starts shooting, I don't trust my ability to get a gun off my lap under the table quicker than he can turn and decide to target my family.
    Just curious, why are you waiting for him to bring it your way before firing?
    Bill MO and marcclarke like this.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Just curious, why are you waiting for him to bring it your way before firing?
    Good question - probably because the way I'm picturing the scenario, I'm trying to get my family of 5 out of harm's way. As long as the BG is focused elsewhere, I don't want to draw his fire toward my family - and until they are safe, I'd want to be positioned between them and the shooter.

    Now, if he were standing close by with his back to me and started arbitrarily shooting people, I'd put the muzzle up to the back of his head and shoot him. But absent a certain kill shot, my first priority would be to get my family out of range.

  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Panther, I see you are what and who you are and I know I'm set in my ways. So we are spinning our wheels.

    Yes in the OP's post I see the threat as being over by the time I really know there is one and appears to be leaving. But it could turn around or come back, so my gun would most likely be out and hide from view. Because I don't know if there will be more threat to follow. Most times if I draw it will be to fire as soon as possible. I have made the decision to fire before the draw.

    But if I point my gun even in the general direction of the shooter it will be to fire. Perfect practice makes one faster both with the draw and getting on target once the gun is in hand. You can do alot of that practice in your home with dry fire practice.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Panther, I see you are what and who you are and I know I'm set in my ways. So we are spinning our wheels.

    Yes in the OP's post I see the threat as being over by the time I really know there is one and appears to be leaving. But it could turn around or come back, so my gun would most likely be out and hide from view. Because I don't know if there will be more threat to follow. Most times if I draw it will be to fire as soon as possible. I have made the decision to fire before the draw.

    But if I point my gun even in the general direction of the shooter it will be to fire. Perfect practice makes one faster both with the draw and getting on target once the gun is in hand. You can do alot of that practice in your home with dry fire practice.
    Actually I agree with you 100% depending on how I read the OP. Initially, it says in the actual event that the shooter "shot him and ran out" - so you'd likely see him leaving the restaurant and becoming a non-threat before there was a need to even draw your weapon.

    The OP later says "His gun swept across the restaurant as he was turning to leave" - I assume as the hypothetical scenario then asking about a duty to protect innocents. I read that as the shooter popping one guy, then sweeping (and sighting) over the restaurant as if he may shoot someone else. My response was to prevent that targeting sweep from reaching my family. If he's just turning and running to an exit after shooting someone, there'd be little to respond to.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post
    Actually I agree with you 100% depending on how I read the OP. Initially, it says in the actual event that the shooter "shot him and ran out" - so you'd likely see him leaving the restaurant and becoming a non-threat before there was a need to even draw your weapon.

    The OP later says "His gun swept across the restaurant as he was turning to leave" - I assume as the hypothetical scenario then asking about a duty to protect innocents. I read that as the shooter popping one guy, then sweeping (and sighting) over the restaurant as if he may shoot someone else. My response was to prevent that targeting sweep from reaching my family. If he's just turning and running to an exit after shooting someone, there'd be little to respond to.
    That was why I was confused on your earlier posts.......
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post
    Good question - probably because the way I'm picturing the scenario, I'm trying to get my family of 5 out of harm's way. As long as the BG is focused elsewhere, I don't want to draw his fire toward my family - and until they are safe, I'd want to be positioned between them and the shooter.

    Now, if he were standing close by with his back to me and started arbitrarily shooting people, I'd put the muzzle up to the back of his head and shoot him. But absent a certain kill shot, my first priority would be to get my family out of range.
    Again, your logic is lost on me. How far out of range is a family of five going to get in the one to two seconds you have before he heads your way and makes his shoot/don't shoot decision?
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    That was why I was confused on your earlier posts.......
    After re-reading the OP, I'm still not sure if the "sweep" was the hypothetical, or a description of the actual event and just a byproduct of the shooters arm catching up to him as he's turning to run away.

    Could be my own mental process - or limitation - that considers a "sweep" to be deliberate and much slower than anything tied to someone turning and running from the scene.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Again, your logic is lost on me. How far out of range is a family of five going to get in the one to two seconds you have before he heads your way and makes his shoot/don't shoot decision?
    That's a new scenario. So instead of ushering my family out of a rear exit while the BG is focused in another direction, now he's heading towards me with his gun drawn? If that's the case I'd be shooting and praying.

    Bottom line, if someone near my family shoots somebody, if I have time, I'll put myself and my weapon in a position to get a shot at him before he gets his muzzle pointing anywhere near my family. If he never threatens my family and is exiting, why would I shoot him - as retaliation?

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Sounds to me as the fight was over before you would have known there was a fight. If that's it and he leaves then you are not LE so be a good witness get all the details you can, on what he looks like.

    If he threatens all those who are in the restaurant, then the situation has changed and all including you and yours are in danger. Stop the threat as soon and the best you can.

    Also welcome to the forum!
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Yes, you do have duty. A duty to insure you return home that night to your family. Take cover first. Do what you have to do to protect yourself and family. If he moves towards you, take him out if you can.


    ^^^^^^^I'm in this camp here^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    If you were seated in the restaurant, duck for cover.

    Say you were just coming in, and were stuck near the entrance/exit, and as he is rushing up on you, you might be forced into shooting because of being between him and the door.

    But other than that I'm gonna be laying lower that whale crap at the bottom of the ocean.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

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