Accidentally carried into a NO CC building, but others' lives are threatened - Page 4

Accidentally carried into a NO CC building, but others' lives are threatened

This is a discussion on Accidentally carried into a NO CC building, but others' lives are threatened within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by GetSmith I just took my CCW class and should have my permit in about 3 weeks. In a public setting like that ...

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  1. #46
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GetSmith View Post
    I just took my CCW class and should have my permit in about 3 weeks. In a public setting like that unless my family's lives are at risk I would not pull my weapon. Im not the police, it's not my duty. I would not want to chance taking an innocent life. The moral and financial repercussions would be severe, even if you only hit the BG. Too many variables, maybe you might escalate the situation.

    A lawyer that guest spoke in my class gave good advice. She said of you have to ask yourself if the shoot is justified its probably not. When the shot is justified you will instinctively take it without thought.

    If I was out at night and saw a woman being raped in an alley way with no other innocents I would take the shot or distract the BG to get off of the victim. I'm surprised how many people are anti gun. In general I feel it's not my duty to protect them. They have the right to protect themselves if they choose.
    As soon as I saw a gun pointed I would open fire. That's not me playing police, more like auto-private taking over and addressing a threat. I'm not going to wait, I'm not going to have a deep moral debate, I'm going to kill without hesitation and then call my lawyer.


  2. #47
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post
    In MT, I'd be good to go. No laws against being somewhere that's posted, unless they ask you to leave.
    It would be ironic if they 'made' you, asked you to leave, and on your way out the door that's when the robbery starts and you legally kill the criminal.
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  3. #48
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    Mjr_Fail,

    I spoke to a couple State Troopers (friends) regarding exactly what you are pointing out a few weeks ago. The law does clearly state that signs have "force of law" in Wisconsin. My trooper buddies agreed that the signs were sufficient notification for you to not be on the property with the firearm. Therefor you could easily be charged for the trespass.

    We also spoke of the Milwaukee shooting at Aldies and they also confirmed that the majority of officers would not pursue a charge for the CC'er acting in defense of innocents. One cited case law, but I'm too old to keep that in memory.

    My solution is to avoid places that are posted. I do try to notify their management of the loss of my business and the risk they are increasing because of the choice to be posted and then I move on. I feel no need for me to find loop holes to financially support a business that provides clear notice that they don't want mine.

    If I were a passerby, and a scenario was going down that I was dragged into, that's a different thing and I'm engaging.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
    ― Albert Einstein

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by discoboxer View Post
    Mjr_Fail,

    I spoke to a couple State Troopers (friends) regarding exactly what you are pointing out a few weeks ago. The law does clearly state that signs have "force of law" in Wisconsin. My trooper buddies agreed that the signs were sufficient notification for you to not be on the property with the firearm. Therefor you could easily be charged for the trespass.

    We also spoke of the Milwaukee shooting at Aldies and they also confirmed that the majority of officers would not pursue a charge for the CC'er acting in defense of innocents. One cited case law, but I'm too old to keep that in memory.


    My solution is to avoid places that are posted. I do try to notify their management of the loss of my business and the risk they are increasing because of the choice to be posted and then I move on. I feel no need for me to find loop holes to financially support a business that provides clear notice that they don't want mine.

    If I were a passerby, and a scenario was going down that I was dragged into, that's a different thing and I'm engaging.
    How does that stop the robbery?

  5. #50
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    After speaking to my local DPS and ATF, I learned that carrying onto this kind of property is not a crime but instead a request. Unfortunately if any action was taken to defend yourself and others it could be used against you in court as proof that you’re not truly a law abiding citizen (though we know that is not the case). If you are confronted at one of these establishments about your CC (given they somehow see it or notice your armed) they can ask you to take the fire arm out and/or ask you to leave. If you refuse they will most likely call the police, they will come and being a law abiding citizen you should still be at the location but maybe not inside to show you’re not an actual threat. The police do not have the right to arrest you but we all know this may not be the case stated by authority, they will take a report and you should be on your way.

    As for the question would I protect myself and my family, it is without question a yes. In any case of self defense involving the discharge of your firearm resulting in death and or serious bodily injury, you will go to jail for an un disclosed amount of time, I would rather go knowing that I did what I could to protect my family and myself.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by USMCone View Post
    After speaking to my local DPS and ATF, I learned that carrying onto this kind of property is not a crime but instead a request. Unfortunately if any action was taken to defend yourself and others it could be used against you in court as proof that you’re not truly a law abiding citizen
    Kind of a red herring argument. I don't see any jurisdiction attempting to pursue that charge if you've performed a justifiable action.

    After all... You can't abide by the sign, if you didn't notice the sign when you went inside.

    The only way I see them using that against you is if you screwed up royally and got someone killed (other than the robber) and they are charging you for criminal negligence or murder. Then, that is the least of your problems.
    USMCone likes this.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #52
    New Member Array USMCone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Kind of a red herring argument. I don't see any jurisdiction attempting to pursue that charge if you've performed a justifiable action.

    After all... You can't abide by the sign, if you didn't notice the sign when you went inside.

    The only way I see them using that against you is if you screwed up royally and got someone killed (other than the robber) and they are charging you for criminal negligence or murder. Then, that is the least of your problems.
    I did not make the statement they can use it against you, but “could” as in the opposing litigation will grab at anything to make a case against you. I don’t believe it would hold but we all know stranger things have happened, also in addition it would be used to lead the jury, again not the right thing in my opinion but what I have seen done.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    How does that stop the robbery?
    The sidebar conversation was regarding Wisconsin signs having the "force of law". I apologize for the off topic discussion, was just trying to chime in on that part of the conversation.

    I personally don't patronize businesses that are posted if I don't have to. I would not be looking to find reason to go in the business armed, like the sign is too small, it's not on all exits, not the right wording, etc. If I saw it, than I saw it and I recognize that they do not want me there. While I think it's poor policy, I respect the law and a businesses right.

    Like I posted earlier, if I didn't see the sign (unlikely, but very small possibility) and I were caught up in a violent encounter, the sign would have no bearing since I was unaware of it in the first place. I would act as though there was no sign since that was the understanding I had going in.

    If I were walking by a posted business and knew it was posted, then somehow got dragged into the conflict, most likely I would engage with no concern over the posting at this point.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by discoboxer View Post
    The sidebar conversation was regarding Wisconsin signs having the "force of law".
    In that case the solution is to ban no-gun signs, like in Florida.

    A $5,000 fine just for posting the sign, with an additional infraction per customer or employee turned away for legally carrying. That's how it is in Florida, that's how it should be across the nation.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    In that case the solution is to ban no-gun signs, like in Florida.

    A $5,000 fine just for posting the sign, with an additional infraction per customer or employee turned away for legally carrying. That's how it is in Florida, that's how it should be across the nation.
    I am conflicted on this type of law. The "Pro-Gun" heart in me says I agree with this type of legislation, but the brain in me says that I want the government regulations to be minimal. I don't see it as the laws responsibility to regulate a privately owned business on this matter. This is where the buyer's responsibility is.....to not patronize the business and let your choice be known to them.

    I can't expect the law to work for me when I ask someone to leave my property (for whatever reason I feel), when they make exceptions to the rule in regards to privately owned businesses. Allowing the Gov to act as a "Nanny State" when it fits our needs is not the answer either.

    Respectfully JMO.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by discoboxer View Post
    I am conflicted on this type of law. The "Pro-Gun" heart in me says I agree with this type of legislation, but the brain in me says that I want the government regulations to be minimal. I don't see it as the laws responsibility to regulate a privately owned business on this matter. This is where the buyer's responsibility is.....to not patronize the business and let your choice be known to them.
    It's the business owners responsibility to accommodate the public, not the public to accommodate the business owner.

    Quote Originally Posted by discoboxer View Post
    I can't expect the law to work for me when I ask someone to leave my property (for whatever reason I feel), when they make exceptions to the rule in regards to privately owned businesses.
    A business owner already can not ask employees or customers to leave for certain reasons. This would just be another.

    Quote Originally Posted by discoboxer View Post
    Allowing the Gov to act as a "Nanny State" when it fits our needs is not the answer either.
    Protecting specifically enumerated rights from unjustified infringement, even from private parties, is a valid government function.

    If the act is in all ways lawful and is not creating a disturbance then the business owner should need to have a good reason to prohibit it. I don't see how you get 'nanny state' out of any of this....unless maybe you don't know what the term means?

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    If you're not sure about whether what you wrote would be justified or not, then you are in need of a lot more critical information regarding the legal requirements that could cause a lot of grief in the aftermath.
    My fault, I should of said...
    " Justifiable? I think so."
    I wrote "you think" sarcastically and have complete understanding of the power that we carry on our hips and the risk we all take every day we wake up in this crazy world... which is the reason I conceal carry in the first place. I don't trust the human race... there's no telling what someone might do if your in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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    I guess if something bad happened to those places and im outside, i still wont hlp. I will just dive off. If i am inside and see innocent people get shot and im not in the line of sight, i will be takint off even if knowing for sure i couldve prevented it. Some people and places need to learn it the hard way lol

  14. #59
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    I've never seen a no CC sign unless it was on a post office or other federal bld. The signs actually just state no firearms. Is that common in many states?
    Former US Army SFC
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    It's the business owners responsibility to accommodate the public, not the public to accommodate the business owner.

    I believe it's mutual. They provide a service that they feel they can make a profit off of. I choose to support it by buying from them or another. I can choose one business over another by my own requirements such an example is "it's cleaner", "more options", or "they support my responsible carry on their premise", etc.


    A business owner already can not ask employees or customers to leave for certain reasons. This would just be another.


    ....and some of those reasons that they can't, I believe are infringements by our government. It's intended to be a free society and a free market. An individual or a business should have the right to choose who they wish to do business with, without the government telling them who, what where and why. The general public has it's own informal court that will broadcast infringements that society deems go to far, and choices to boycott are likely to follow.

    Protecting specifically enumerated rights from unjustified infringement, even from private parties, is a valid government function.

    The courts seem to stretch and limit rights with the party of power, by their definition at the time. I see my property as my property and in the "act of business", doesn't change that. If I want to not sell to people who carry guns, that is my right since it is my property. If you want to buy products that I carry, I'm sure someone will catch on and sell it to you elsewhere.

    If the act is in all ways lawful and is not creating a disturbance then the business owner should need to have a good reason to prohibit it. I don't see how you get 'nanny state' out of any of this....unless maybe you don't know what the term means?
    Not in my opinion. If a business owner is clear and honest about their expectations to do business than I believe they have every right to operate how they choose. To clarify, I am talking about on their own property.

    I am not Webster, but my definition of "Nanny-State" is the Gov overstepping "guaranteed rights" by our nation's constitution, in efforts to make someone else feel better. The Gov was not intended to lay out a road map for how each and every person is to find peace and prosperity but to guarantee their access to it, by that individuals own ambition.[/QUOTE]
    sayhibob likes this.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
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