Accidentally carried into a NO CC building, but others' lives are threatened

This is a discussion on Accidentally carried into a NO CC building, but others' lives are threatened within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here's the situation: Let's say you accidentally carried into a "NO CC" building such as a store (non-federal law, court building) because you missed the ...

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    Member Array 02R1's Avatar
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    Accidentally carried into a NO CC building, but others' lives are threatened

    Here's the situation: Let's say you accidentally carried into a "NO CC" building such as a store (non-federal law, court building) because you missed the sign posted on the front door. While inside, a robber comes in with a gun and does what all robbers do. Your life is not in immediate danger because the robber is pointing the gun at the cashier or other customers and you know you can take him/her out from your position. would you do it knowing it's a "no CC" zone?

    Personally, if the life of my love ones or those who came with me are in danger and I know I can settle the situation nice and clean without risking others' lives, I would do it regardless. If the strangers' lives are in danger, I may not bother. What would you do?

    Reason I asked this is because I've accidentally walked into a few stores and have missed the "no CC" sign. Someone held the door opened for me as I walked in and I don't remember ever seeing a "No CC" sign the previous many times i've been there. Didn't realized it until I walked out that a "No CC" sign was recently posted..

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    Run away.
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    IANAL - but, the doctrine of "competing harms" most likely comes into play. If you are not trying to be a hero but are confronted with imminent, grievous bodily harm, it's unlikely (but not impossible) that you would be prosecuted for defending your own life or that of someone under the mantle of your protection.
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    Member Array GetSmith's Avatar
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    I just took my CCW class and should have my permit in about 3 weeks. In a public setting like that unless my family's lives are at risk I would not pull my weapon. Im not the police, it's not my duty. I would not want to chance taking an innocent life. The moral and financial repercussions would be severe, even if you only hit the BG. Too many variables, maybe you might escalate the situation.

    A lawyer that guest spoke in my class gave good advice. She said of you have to ask yourself if the shoot is justified its probably not. When the shot is justified you will instinctively take it without thought.

    If I was out at night and saw a woman being raped in an alley way with no other innocents I would take the shot or distract the BG to get off of the victim. I'm surprised how many people are anti gun. In general I feel it's not my duty to protect them. They have the right to protect themselves if they choose.
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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GetSmith View Post
    If I was out at night and saw a woman being raped in an alley way with no other innocents I would take the shot or distract the BG to get off of the victim. I'm surprised how many people are anti gun. In general I feel it's not my duty to protect them. They have the right to protect themselves if they choose.
    Need to be careful there. A woman was having an affair with a man (obviously someone other than her husband). One night her husband shows up and she is having sex in a truck with some unknow man, and she starts yelling "rape"...... husband shoots the rapist and kills him (justified).
    Only, it wasn't really a rape. He .... was never charged, because he believed she was being raped when he shot the guy. However, she was charged ..... and went to prison for a long time. Ya just never know ... for sure.
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    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02R1 View Post
    Here's the situation: Let's say you accidentally carried into a "NO CC" building such as a store (non-federal law, court building) because you missed the sign posted on the front door.
    The scenario has nothing to do with the no weapons sign since you did not see it. What does one do in the scenario you describe that is a hard call and there is no one right answer. However concealed carriers have to keep in mind that the permit does not give one the latitude law enforcement enjoys in shooting incidents.
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
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    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

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    I have posted this before but I guess it applies here.

    Part of the questions that would be asked in this situation "What would a reasonable and prudent person do in the same situation?" would be "Were they legally there to begin with?". In general if the answer to that question is no then all good intentions or actions past that point would be moot.

    You would have to prove that you "accidentally" were on the premises with your firearm which could get a bit sticky.

    I just took my CCW class and should have my permit in about 3 weeks. In a public setting like that unless my family's lives are at risk I would not pull my weapon. Im not the police, it's not my duty. I would not want to chance taking an innocent life. The moral and financial repercussions would be severe, even if you only hit the BG. Too many variables, maybe you might escalate the situation.

    A lawyer that guest spoke in my class gave good advice. She said of you have to ask yourself if the shoot is justified its probably not. When the shot is justified you will instinctively take it without thought.

    If I was out at night and saw a woman being raped in an alley way with no other innocents I would take the shot or distract the BG to get off of the victim. I'm surprised how many people are anti gun. In general I feel it's not my duty to protect them. They have the right to protect themselves if they choose.
    Getsmith. I am not bashing nor saying anything negative to you or about you just a couple of observations.

    It is each individual's decision to make as to whether they would intervene in someones behalf. You are correct we as gun toters are not the police. The statement from the attorney kind of troubles me though. You should always question whether shooting is justified. In the situation you gave of a woman being attacked in an alley. Instinctively that would seem justified for some level of use of force but as was pointed out things are not always as they appear.

    If you or anyone was involved in a shooting and in your statement you said "I did not think about it, I just fired instinctively" I don't know how that would be perceived. Again in the rape situation presented suppose when it was all said and done, no matter what your action, the victim turned out to be the spokesperson for the Brady Group?

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with your decision not to intervene in a situation, that is your choice and no one can question it.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Member Array GetSmith's Avatar
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    No offense taken tacman. As usual i was useing my words to paint in broad strokes. Yes at some level you will always think before you shoot. You will think much less when somebody is charging you with knife in hand. If I ran into a rape in public would I pause to acess the situation, Yes. Is it force able, are there multile guys, are there lookouts around the corner. Then AFTER 911 is called if necessary I would draw and shoot if need be. Of course you always give a minimum statement to LEO untill you speak to your lawyer and as CCW holders we should know what are states laws are in these types of situations. CA is a stand your ground state with the right to defend others. Still if possible a call to LEO and retreat is often a good choice unless you or yours are in a life threating situation.

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    Within the last year in Milwaukee, a CC'er stopped a crime by shooting an armed robber at an Aldies Grocery store that was posted. From my understanding he was not charged for the "trespass".

    I would hope I did not miss a sign, but if I were armed at that point, my reaction would be the same.
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    Here's the deal. Do you know how many thousands armed robberies go on with no one getting shot? Plenty.

    While these situations are very dynamic in nature, and anything can turn on a dime. I have decided on some thresholds which should be met before I would want to intervene in a third party situation. The sign posted on the door is not even a factor I consider, so get that straight.

    While these rules are not set in stone, if there's a situation such as a robbery going down in a store and I am not the one being robbed directly, I am going to tend to play it real cool and not try to do anything which would make things worse. I'm going to look for a way to escape, or hunker down behind cover or concealment where I am either hidden or less of a visible threat. If he eyeballs me and makes me part of the equation I'm going to more than likely shoot him repeatedly (having my gun already in my hand from a place of cover or advantage).

    If the guy completes the robbery with no shots fired, (the way it goes down in thousands of armed robberies) I'm calling the police and assisting in the investigation in any way I can.

    If the robber starts shooting people, then I'm going to engage him to try and save myself and any others who may be present. I'm going to feel real bad for anyone who got shot. But I'm not the one who shot them. What people have to realize is that once you insert yourself in the mix, there's no way of knowing how it is going to play out. There are too many unknowns. Too many variables. It is distinctly possible by engaging the robber, your actions is what initiates an all out blood bath with lots of innocent casualties.

    Again, nothing is set in stone. Violent crime is too dynamic an event to know beforehand exactly how you are going to react, or should react. However, going over scenarios like this over and over again, you can begin to strategize on how you may react and develop a set of benchmarks which tend help you determine at what point it is best to get involved.
    -Bark'n
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    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by discoboxer View Post
    Within the last year in Milwaukee, a CC'er stopped a crime by shooting an armed robber at an Aldies Grocery store that was posted. From my understanding he was not charged for the "trespass".
    Bad news(to my knowledge) he is still fighting with the Milwaukee Police Department to get his weapon back. Correct in that he was not charged with anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02R1 View Post
    I know I can settle the situation nice and clean
    That part of the OP makes me stop. It is an impossibility. If you think any shooting is nice and clean you've spent too much time watching movies and not enough time in the real world. In the real world shootings are messy. People tend to miss. When they get hit they tend to scream. Bodily fluids are all over the place. Bystanders run and scream and cry. There's nothing nice and clean about shooting at someone, ever.
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    If your not aware it is posted, then it has no bearing on how you'd react.
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    The vague, impossible-to-know details of the OP are exactly the same as the vague, impossible-to-know details of the real situation were it to be developing in front of us. And, if I missed the sign, how am I now suddenly going to know (at this very intense moment) that I'm in a non-CC building? This isn't a Steven Seagal movie, I'm not a LEO & there are too many unknown X-factors in this scenario (for me) to give a definitive answer.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

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    The original premise, as mentioned by others, is self-contradicting.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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