This is a discussion on helped an officer in trouble within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by A7xSchecter6661 I believe you did the right thing. But I as a person believe we should help each other out. Especially protect ...
First of all, you acknowledged that the OP did the right thing, and then stated that we, as human beings, should help each other out, especially those protecting us. Then in your next breath you further clarify your initial statement by saying you would help out the officer IF it wasn't dangerous.
May I point out, the recognition of danger may not be recognizable until you have already begun to assist. What do you do at that point? Do you just say "aw shucks, it's too dangerous" and give up and go to the end of the block and dial 911?
What if it were two BG's on you, and when the police officer showed up and saw that he was outnumbered, he then chose to back off, not render assistance, and just call for backup while saying "I'll help you out as soon as I get some assistance".
Now, let's throw your additional point in here that IF the BG's were armed, you would NOT assist the officer, you would retreat, call 911, and just be a good observer of the officer being killed. That is what you imply is it not?
I have a real problem with folks who think assistance is good if they are in trouble, but is an "observe and call 911" decision if someone else is in trouble.
You directly CONTRADICT your belief in helping your fellow human being.
I guess each of us that have chosen to carry a weapon MUST come to the decisions as to how we will react/act BEFORE we are ever thrown into the scenario. In "most" states, you, as a concealed permit/weapon carrier do have the ability, through the eyes of the law, to intervene on behalf of a third party (in this case a police officer). And, this intervention could be made against armed BG's.
I know how I would react. It's something EACH of us need to come to reckoning with as far as what their answer to the dilema will be. As I've stated before, if YOU can live with the death of a fellow human being (police officer in this scenario), knowing that you had the ability to perhaps make a difference by rendering assistance, then I wish you the best of dreams the remainder of your life. Just saying..
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
Proud owner of a Sig Sauer P238 SAS Explosive Space Modulator.
"I played the powerless in too many dark scenes. And I was blessed with a birth and a death, and I guess I just want some say in between." - Ani DiFranco, "Talk to me Now."
I have to add a comment....... because I'm sure you will get every type of advise, opinions, etc in this thread.
As pilots all know the saying ....... "ANY landing you can walk away from , is a good landing " .
the point obviously being, it may not be prettty, it may not have gone like you wanted it to, there may have been several things that went wrong, it may have been the fartherest thing from a perfect landing there is, but if you were able to walk away from it.... the only damage is the airplane .... and the most important things was..... you were able to walk away from it uninjured, alive and walking.
Same applies here. If you were able to help an officer, and if YOU and HIM were then able to walk away from it unscathed ....... that's all that counts.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
Respectable choice you made. All it would have taken would be for the second guy who attacked him to get a hold of the officers holstered firearm while he was distracted, you may have prevented that. As much as they help protect citizens, sometimes they need the citizens help too, I just wish more officers would keep that in mind. Good job man.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK
Yes, I would help, IF I quickly can determine that I CAN help.
In my younger years, I was 5-7 and 140#. not exactly a "hulk Hogan" warrior. Now, at 65, I am still 5-7 but have a "few extra pounds". I never was a "fighter".
If I was armed and the situation dictated, I would draw and just yell "freeze". That alone, may give the officer time to reverse the situation.
Now, that said, I am fully aware that the BGs may charge at me and escalate the situation into a shooting solution. However, the situation is to be evaluated on-site. Hindsight is always 20-20.
I want to pass along a discussion between a baseball unpire and a judge, who were good friends. the unpire made a bad call. The judge was chiding him on it. The umpire said; "Look here, when you are on the bench, you can take all the time you want to judge. If you are still not sure, you can call in 2 more judges and then decide. I had to made a call on the spot, right now, whether its right or wrong."
Point is: the situation dictates the response of whether to 911 or to jump in with both feet.
That my $.02
You did the right thing.
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You did good. Weather it was a bad arrest or not is irrelevant. No one should set back and watch another person be beat or killed if they have an opportunity to intervene. We turned a fire hose on some drunks fighting with an officer at a wreck. They lost the will pretty quick when 100psi of water hit them.
I have to say at going on 73 and at 5ft 11, 170lbs plus my last heart attack was this last April, if a officer needs help I'm there some one else can call 911
I am not even talking weapons here. I am directly answering the topic. Yes I understand one could have a gun or something but you don't know that until it's too late.
The cop was out numbered and being manhandled 2 on 1, as far as you know so far nobody has a weapon but the cop.
I was basically saying there was nothing wrong with what the OP did to aid the police officer in giving him enough time to draw his weapon and handle the situation. And that being said I agree if you think it's safe you can help somebody in need, this case being the LEO.
Now if you're standing on the porch and one (suspect) draws a gun right then and there why the hell would you put yourself in danger? You're just going to end up getting both of you (and LEO) shot and they would escape for now. You want to get away from it, be a witness and get that officer help as soon as you can. I also would not expect somebody to jump in if I was the LEO if a gun was pulled on me.
I did not say I was going to run down and pop somebody in the head cause they jumped on a cop who is cuffing their friend. The only pistol this has to do with is helping the cop draw his.
As of right now I am learning all that I need to know before I get my permit. Now you say " In "most" states, you, as a concealed permit/weapon carrier do have the ability, through the eyes of the law, to intervene on behalf of a third party (in this case a police officer). And, this intervention could be made against armed BG's." That is wonderful because it gives you the ability to help others in need. Was I saying I would not shoot somebody to help that officer? No, the original story did not contain a firearm. It was inside of the house. Now had the story contained a holstered firearm and one of the BGs drew a weapon on the cop would I shoot? Absolutely because now this has become an innocent life on the lines. Somebody who is trying to protect you, me, our families and everyone else. Who is in the wrong if a weapon is drawn on the cop? The BG, and I sure would take the shot.
But as somebody else said, if they are unarmed you can do a simple "FREEZE!" and that can give the officer enough time to flip the situation.
Anyways, I am here to learn and my learning started just days ago. I have not owned a pistol before and I am nowhere near even getting my permit. You came in guns blazing at my post but like I said I am only days into learning. And I am glad you made the comment on the right to help a third party because I have not yet looked into my C&C rights. If I am able to help somebody or even an officer damn right I'll take the shot, so thank you for the info!
"To reject the notion of expertise, and to replace it with a sanctimonious insistence that every person has a right to his or her own opinion, is silly."
Really it all depends how convincing you are though, but like somebody else said just drawing attention can help the officer.
I also attended a "Citizen Police Academy", and the final part of it was doing a full shift ride-along with an officer. When we got in the car, he showed me large "Riot Stick?" /Billy CLub type thing under the seat and told me the following:
"If I stop somebody and they get out and start fighting with me, grab this stick and beat the $#!+ out of them. If they pull a knife, either beat the $#!+ out of them or run. If they pull a gun and/or shoot me - run like hell!"
Luckily, the shift went off without me needing to resort to using the club. It was VERY enlightining as to how much crap our LEO's put up with everyday and are expected to remain calm and professional! All though I already respected them for the job they do for us, my respect level went way up after seeing how difficult and dangerous their job is in person.
It takes a special type personality to deal with the people LEOs have to, and, unfortunately, some LEOs don't have it. Fortunately, enough do.
Retired USAF E-8. Official forum curmudgeon.
Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
Have never come across a situation like this but did have it in a training class. I took a Force on Force class using simunition and one of the scenarios was an officer being attacked by a BG with another student playing the part of a bystander. It wound up with the BG kneeling over the prone LEO banging his head against the ground. The bystander pulled his weapon, ordered him to stop and took the shot when he didn't.
The instructor, a retired LEO, said any officer would be glad for assistance in a situation like that. He also said that with that particular scenario, it could take only 3 or 4 blows of smashing a head against a hard surface to kill someone.
If you ever have the chance to take a class using simunition equipment, do it. It's very effective training.