Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's scenario - Page 2

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's scenario

This is a discussion on Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I realized a long time ago that there are those that will act as trained and those that will freeze up. And until the situation ...

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Thread: Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's scenario

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    I realized a long time ago that there are those that will act as trained and those that will freeze up. And until the situation is on them You will never know who it is that will step up and pull the trigger. That's why Training is important, It exposes your brain to so many more things. DR
    Last edited by dangerranger; November 3rd, 2012 at 09:13 PM.


  2. #17
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    I would sleep soundly after shooting this BG. I would not sleep soundly if I waited so long that a police officer got killed before I shot the BG.
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  3. #18
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    I am not going to lie. I have a hard time imagining shooting someone in the back. I think it stems from all the Westerns I watched and read growing up as a kid. However put an innocent down on the ground with a bg on top of them and they are done. Guess I will just have to say my name after I've eliminated the threat.

  4. #19
    Member Array jfnixon's Avatar
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    Part of the reluctance to shoot might be the worry that unless the shot takes out the CNS, the BG might pull the trigger on reflex. I know I'd worry about that. If I felt I could close the gap to point blank, I might try to physically move the BG's arm while taking the shot. And yes, I realize this means a much more difficult shot, but I think the tradeoff is worth it. Even if the BG senses your approach at the end, you are inside his OODA loop and almost certainly will have first mover advantage, although at the cost of greater danger to yourself.

    Has anyone run this sort of response to see if I'm full of it? Inquiring minds want to know!

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Just my thought on it, but no one should ever be comfortable with taking another life. That being said, if taking the BG's life to save the life of a GG, then you do what you must, from whatever position is available to you.
    I think being comfortable with something and being prepared to do it are two different things.
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  6. #21
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    Bill good post.

    Looking at this from a back azimuth so to speak. It that many LE would not take the shot to save a brother officer KNOWING THEY WERE AUTHORIZED TO SHOOT how is that average gun toting citizen going to handle it if there is a doubt about legality, morality or anything else in their head?

    All sorts of things would be going through their minds. As we have all discussed before could they even, physically, make the shot? Is their gun up to the task power wise? Would they even get involved as it is not a threat to them? Yes understand family would be different. They would be questioning every action which by then it may be to late.

    Jfnixon. Not questioning your abilities or your motivation in the least. Just looking at this from the other end. "So Mr. Nixon you closed within contact distance, grabbed my client's arm and moved it away from the officer/friend/family on the ground thus eliminating the threat to them and executed my client with a shot to the head?"
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    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  7. #22
    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    If I were a cop, no problem, drop the hammer. Being a civillian, I can't say for sure, but probably not.

  8. #23
    New Member Array r1derbike's Avatar
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    Let the body hit the flo'! Let the body hit the flo'!
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  9. #24
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    I would not be able to sleep if I let the GG get killed because of my inaction therefore, Id take the shot.
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  10. #25
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    I think it may be a matter of stigma, for someone who has never shot/killed anything( as in hunting) or as in the case of a member of the armed forces , a retired LEO or a current member of LEO who HAS fired on another human being, or gone hunting for that matter. That someone who hasn't, may show the apprehension to shoot on a BG.
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  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    I am not a LEO, but I understand their fraternity is refered to and borders on brotherhood. So I would evaluate personally as if it was a family member, and in that case, there is no question that I would shoot.

    But I think this may be one instance where the police training may work against them. What percentage of events/conflicts that police deal with end in a shooting? They are trained to try to avoid shooting civilians if possible, right? So that training might be contrary to their protection instinct and make them hesitate until the threat is directed at them.

    You could say, one of the unintended consequences of focusing on the PR campaigns to make the police warmer and friendlier and not have "incidents" on the news of the boy getting shot who was just turning his life around and didn't really mean any harm by his actions.
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  12. #27
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    It is very easy to sit at your computer while sipping a nice warm (or cold) beverage and pronounce that you would drop the hammer without thinking about it. Actually doing so is an entirely different animal. It has been proven time and time again that even soldiers in war tend to hesitate at the moment of truth. Rifles found at civil war battle sites have been loaded time and time again without ever being fired. Shooting over enemies is a common occurrence. Most people have been told since they were little children that killing another person is a horrible act and is forbidden. Getting over that in an instant to shoot someone in the back is something many people simply aren't going to be able to do. It isn't because we live in a kinder/softer world, it isn't because we've become too PC, it is because we're members of a society with a set of moral views that are difficult to violate for most. Those that have seen the elephant so to speak can know how they would react. Those that haven't can only guess. Being boastful about how you would react in such a situation when you haven't been there doesn't make sense to me at all.

    The thought found in this quote kind of sums out how most people see the situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Just my thought on it, but no one should ever be comfortable with taking another life.
    There are those among us that would not only be comfortable shooting the bad guy but then would celebrate the victory. Unless you know yourself to be one of those people through experience it is difficult to believe that you would shoot someone in the back (which we're taught is extra dirty) without thinking about it.
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  13. #28
    Member Array jfnixon's Avatar
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    Tacman, I do understand your point, and it is a very good point, but the problem has a presupposition that one is fully authorized to shoot the BG. Even if I took the shot at 15 feet, shooting a BG in the back will be problematic for a civilian in Court. I would argue AOJ is still present even if the arm has been briefly brushed aside.

  14. #29
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    Jf. In theory it could be problematic but keep in mind that the law on the federal level may be on your side. Under the reasonable person criteria they decided that if the initial use of force was justified then it follows that whatever level of force used was justified barring negligence.
    Depending on how this was argued and if you were covered under your state law for defense of a third person it would come to reason that shot in the back, shot in the front the initial use of force was justified it would follow suit.

    Yes the AOJ would still be there but it is all in how it was presented to paint the picture so to speak.
    oneshot likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  15. #30
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    A lot of you mention the potential of the 'Legal System' judging you, as opposed to doing the 'right' thing.

    Think about it.... (I am not being sarcastic or otherwise painting an other than neutral comment here)

    We all have different 'socialization' to where our personal trigger point is. It is always situational, and I trust that each of us will just know.

    However, once you cross the line, there is no going back. Been there, done that. All we can do is try to lead good lives without hurting people who do not deserve it. Those that do.... game on!

    My 2 Cents worth.

    (Legal Disclaimer - Comments above were in reference to a potential situation/situations in an overseas (OCONUS) where 'implied' actions were or may have been at the disretion of lawfully followed orders from the US Gov). Other than that, Bugger Off.
    tacman605 likes this.
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