Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's scenario

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Originally Posted by Echo_Four

It is very easy to sit at your computer while sipping a nice warm (or cold) beverage and pronounce that you would drop the hammer without thinking about it. Actually doing so is an entirely different animal. It has been proven time and time again that even soldiers in war tend to hesitate at the moment of truth. Rifles found at civil war battle sites have been loaded time and time again without ever being fired. Shooting over enemies is a common occurrence. Most people have been told since they were little children that killing another person is a horrible act and is forbidden. Getting over that in an instant to shoot someone in the back is something many people simply aren't going to be able to do. It isn't because we live in a kinder/softer world, it isn't because we've become too PC, it is because we're members of a society with a set of moral views that are difficult to violate for most. Those that have seen the elephant so to speak can know how they would react. Those that haven't can only guess. Being boastful about how you would react in such a situation when you haven't been there doesn't make sense to me at all.

The thought found in this quote kind of sums out how most people see the situation.


There are those among us that would not only be comfortable shooting the bad guy but then would celebrate the victory. Unless you know yourself to be one of those people through experience it is difficult to believe that you would shoot someone in the back (which we're taught is extra dirty) without thinking about it.

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I think there is some ever good info in this post. I did not post this to discuss, could make the shot and keep the BG from shooting the GG, but rather could you actually pull the trigger in the first place. This scenario is about your mindset, the best time to work on mindset is now without any press and stress. Know what you can and will do before you need to do it.

While shooting someone either in the front or back should never become enjoyable get it clear in head and heart that you will do what is needed to stop a true threat. Then train and practice in a manner that trains your body to follow the action you have set in mind and heart. That is why we should be shooting targets that have true life like images, with some form of threat shown on them. There are those who say you should have threatening and non-threatening targets both on the range. So you practice and and get use to having GGs in and on the situation.

Shooting someone in the back goes against everything we have been taught our whole life. Unless you have trained your mind to make the choice that you need to shot and then block out the whole target, shoot the spot not the whole image, I see lots of us locking up. I have learned this deer hunting, when you see that buck with the massive set of horns you can not make your shot looking at the horns. You have to put all focus on the small 1 inch spot of hair you are going to place your shot into.

May I suggest most here need to read the OP and really give it some thought not just a moments kneejerk reaction while setting at the keyboard.

What a lot of people who are not police and have not bad to face those things do not realize is that no matter how justified you are, no matter how good a shooting it was in policy and state law, you can still be crucified in the news media for shooting the unsuspecting BG in the back before "he could turn his life around," possibly raked over the coals by your own department and abandoned by them, left to twist in the wind while being "placed on suspension" (which gives the public the aura that you did something wrong), called a racist by the national and local mouthpieces of whatever local or national groups feel offended by the shooting if, goddess forbid, you were not of the same race as the BG, all the while waiting sometimes a year or more for the investigation to clear you. Oh, and that same news media will show your face nightly for weeks, possibly release your home address and such, leaving the threat of retaliation against you and your family. Or what if you miss with one shot and hit an innocent bystander? You own every round you shoot and must remain responsible for them, no matter how ridiculous it may seem.

If you do not believe this, read up on the Sophia King shooting in Austin, Texas.

See what kind of statements the "community" was making in the press in this nice little article if you wish:

The Short Unhappy Life of Sophia King: One bloody morning in June concludes a tragic journey - News - The Austin Chronicle

There are plenty of other articles out there if you want. The basics are that a mentally ill woman off her meds with a butcher knife chased down a housing authority woman, pinned her to the ground and had the knife raised, about to plunge it down, and the officer did the right thing and shot, killing her. The chief could have easily allayed the problem with a single statement to the public, but chose not too, only saying it was "under investigation." Yet supposed "witnesses" were shown on news media outlets claiming she did not have a knife and the cop "murdered her," all of whom retracted those statements when lead before a Grand Jury long after the fact, yet the poor officer suffered horribly in public for "murdering a mentally ill woman who was no threat" because he did the right thing and took the shot. The local yell leaders all screamed that he should have waited for backup, TAZED her, or in general done something else that shoot this poor defenseless mentally ill woman, and they did it on the news over.....and over.....and over.....until the general public felt that the officer MUST have been wrong and unjustified!

The officer was within policy, was justified by the department in its IA investigation, cleared by the Feds and STILL his chief abandoned him to the news media and the idiots that were screaming for his hide.

So, you can see why some cops might hesitate in taking that justified shot.

That said, I would say that I would have to take the shot and will see what happens. The other cop lives and the bad guy suffers the immediate consequences of his/her actions.

I'd definitely shoot him in the back (or anywhere else) to keep him from shooting the PO (or anyone else) in the head. A no-brainer in my mind. I'd never be able to live with myself if the BG fulfilled his promise.

i would have to say that i would draw and fire upon hearing the words uttered that he was going to kill the LEO. 3 things beat into our heads at USAF police academy/training enviroment was intent,opportunity and capability had to be present to use deadly force. gun drawn, statement and a victim is all i would need to use my weapon

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Originally Posted by jfnixon

Part of the reluctance to shoot might be the worry that unless the shot takes out the CNS, the BG might pull the trigger on reflex. I know I'd worry about that. If I felt I could close the gap to point blank, I might try to physically move the BG's arm while taking the shot. And yes, I realize this means a much more difficult shot, but I think the tradeoff is worth it. Even if the BG senses your approach at the end, you are inside his OODA loop and almost certainly will have first mover advantage, although at the cost of greater danger to yourself.

Has anyone run this sort of response to see if I'm full of it? Inquiring minds want to know!

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I know the range at which I hit the switch 100% if the time. I know my accuracy level under adrenaline dump conditions. I also know that non-lethal physical contact is much more likely to result in a reflexive or responsive trigger pull. In my experience with training scenarios, the actor always has advantage over the reactor. "Full of it" is more harsh than I would express it, but yes.

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Originally Posted by Echo_Four

It is very easy to sit at your computer while sipping a nice warm (or cold) beverage and pronounce that you would drop the hammer without thinking about it. Actually doing so is an entirely different animal. It has been proven time and time again that even soldiers in war tend to hesitate at the moment of truth. Rifles found at civil war battle sites have been loaded time and time again without ever being fired. Shooting over enemies is a common occurrence. Most people have been told since they were little children that killing another person is a horrible act and is forbidden. Getting over that in an instant to shoot someone in the back is something many people simply aren't going to be able to do. It isn't because we live in a kinder/softer world, it isn't because we've become too PC, it is because we're members of a society with a set of moral views that are difficult to violate for most. Those that have seen the elephant so to speak can know how they would react. Those that haven't can only guess. Being boastful about how you would react in such a situation when you haven't been there doesn't make sense to me at all.

The thought found in this quote kind of sums out how most people see the situation.


There are those among us that would not only be comfortable shooting the bad guy but then would celebrate the victory. Unless you know yourself to be one of those people through experience it is difficult to believe that you would shoot someone in the back (which we're taught is extra dirty) without thinking about it.

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It is also easy to assume that everybody sits behind the computer speculating rather than spending the money, taking the time, and going through the training. Many dollars and hours with these folks made me understand the error of that assumption: Tactical Defense Institute -- Ohio Firearms - Gun - Rifle - Shotgun - Pistol - CCW - Concealed Carry Permit -- TDI --www.tdiohio.com -- Cincinnati - Dayton - Columbus - Cleveland - Lexington - Louisville - Wheeling - Huntington - Indianapolis

If my daughter or wife is the one on the ground I am getting close enough to make sure I don't miss the back of his head the first time or the fourth time. Whatever it takes the BG is going down as quickly as I can pull the trigger. I don't understand the reaction of the LEO's as they are shooting people brandishing a knife...a bit less dangerous than a firearm.

First, engage the subject with the "Practical Darwinism" shot, drop to one knee, take careful aim, and shoot him in the groin. This should cause both hands to rapidly converge at the pelvic region far faster than his trigger finger can react even through reflex, thus moving the weapon away from the downed officer. This shot is of great benefit to society as you have just prevented him from passing on his obviously faulty genes to another generation, thus Darwinism in action. :image035: J/K


Seriously, I'd hesitate, I'll freely admit it. There's so much cultural stigma associated with shooting someone in the back, that's pretty much a given. None of us will really know until we're in that situation how we will react, but, I hope I'd have the moral fiber to say to myself, "well there goes my life savings" and take the shot.

Mike training is great. From what I have seen from you it is clear that you take training seriously. However I'd venture that most aren't the same. And I have seen training fail to translate to action though not as frequently as it does with lesser trained people. It is possible to send millions of rounds down range and not establish a mindset that allows you to pull the trigger when a person is on the other end. It is more than just saying you can do it.

I am not pointing at any person because I don't know what anyone here could or could not do. Just encouraging people to spend time really thinking about it rather than just saying they could be cold and calculating at the moment of truth.

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Originally Posted by Mike1956

I ran three different scenarios similar to this during tactical courses. In two of the three, I was able to quickly close and take the shots nearly point blank. An instructor was the bg in one of them, and he became very upset about my strategy. In the third, I was only able to close to about fifteen feet before taking the shot, which was still on target.

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Why didn't the instructor like your strategy?
- It was too good and he wanted you to have angst figuring out what you would do?
- You took air-soft, or paintball shots at him point blank? Ouch!
- Your strategy was flawed in some way I don't understand?
???

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Originally Posted by ElkSniper

Why didn't the instructor like your strategy?
- It was too good and he wanted you to have angst figuring out what you would do?
- You took air-soft, or paintball shots at him point blank? Ouch!
- Your strategy was flawed in some way I don't understand?
???

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That particular scenario was done with roped guns outside, so no one got hurt. There were ten or eleven participants. The instructor played the bad guy. He grabbed a human shield from behind, put a gun to her head and began screaming "Do what I say or I'll kill her". The other participants, all armed, were in front of him at ranges varying from about ten to thirty feet. I'm pretty sure most simply drew down on him. I was at his 2:00 at about thirty feet. When he did the grab, I ran to his right to get out of his peripheral and closed to near point blank ala Tueller bad guy. His first indication that I was there was the verbal bang he heard. A couple things upset him. I believe that first and foremost, he was startled. His grounds for my chew-out were the "distance is ALWAYS your friend in a lethal force confrontation" admonishment, and that I was recklessly trying to play hero.

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Originally Posted by Mike1956

I know the range at which I hit the switch 100% if the time. I know my accuracy level under adrenaline dump conditions. I also know that non-lethal physical contact is much more likely to result in a reflexive or responsive trigger pull. In my experience with training scenarios, the actor always has advantage over the reactor. "Full of it" is more harsh than I would express it, but yes.

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Do you mean you know the range at which you can hit the medulla oblongata 100% of the time? I'll simply say that you know at what range you can hit where it is on paper, but can you guarantee that if you take that shot a bone won't deflect it off course?

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Originally Posted by paaiyan

Do you mean you know the range at which you can hit the medulla oblongata 100% of the time? I'll simply say that you know at what range you can hit where it is on paper, but can you guarantee that if you take that shot a bone won't deflect it off course?

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Can you guarantee the sun won't go into super nova in the instant before you pull the trigger? Can you guarantee that a solar flare won't cause all of the rounds in your pistol to fire as you're bringing your gun onto target and thus shooting the ground behind the BG? Can you guarantee that the BG has a medulla oblongata and isn't some sort of terminator sent from the future?

Come on man, there's no promises in life. The best you can do is the best you can do. If the shot misses the mythical medulla oblongata and hits the cerebellum or pons instead the odds are in your favor of an instant shut down and a happy ending. We cannot guarantee anything in life other than that it will end one day. Outside of that, chance plays a part in anything.

You have to put all focus on the small 1 inch spot of hair you are going to place your shot into.

Good observation.

I have met Dave Grossman on more than one occasion, he is very bright. I am a Retired (are we ever) firearms instructor.
When I teach Police, I have a Scenario I always insert.

Based on the most dangerous call, of all. The Domestic! First we establish (class participation) the average size of a kitchen. It normally is about 6m doorway to the corner of the counter, where the knife drawer/block is. The CALL! Man with knife, holding woman, in front of him, you can see his eye, and nose.

I state, the eye socket is a good place to hit. Feel your own, just under 2". Target is an IDPA cardboard one. One each. I draw one left eye, next, right eye, on each head. Moving along.

"Draw and aim at your individual eye!" "Shout very loud" "Drop the knife" three times.

"Then fire the shot in your own time."

This is their duty weapon. This exercise is shot cold! The hits, are normally absiminal!

The class is now about fixing that!