Real Scenario at my local Wally World - Page 3

Real Scenario at my local Wally World

This is a discussion on Real Scenario at my local Wally World within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tcox4freedom Now! A manager came up talked into a radio and the cops were on the way. I just stood there watching ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array GlassWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    Now!

    A manager came up talked into a radio and the cops were on the way. I just stood there watching for a few minutes to make sure it didn't get physical. After a few seconds I realized the guy had some kind of mental illness and wanted his mom to buy something and she refused.

    He was a big guy; maybe in his early 20's; 6' 3-4" and easily 300+. He would have been a handful hth. But, I already made the decision if I had to intervene it wasn't going to be with a gun. Although, there was no security personnel anywhere to be seen, I think the brothers were doing the same thing I was. (Watching & waiting for the popo while staying close enough to grab the guy should he get violent with his mother.)

    The cops came & he put up some resistance and threatened to fight the cops. But they got him under control pretty quick. They quickly assessed and were firm polite & professional; getting him under control and escorting him out of the store without hurting or killing him.

    I hear all sorts of bad LEO stories. But, my boys here in the south do a pretty good job! (I'm glad we don't have those pansy cops we here about in NYC, DC & other places that shoot first.)

    -
    Hey tcox, where in SC are you? I'm outside Columbia, myself, and I know a number of cops locally, working in security. They're pretty cool guys, the one's I know. I agree that they do good work here.


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    When you say mental illness, do you mean phychological, or are you talking like Autism? Because that's what I think when I envision a mother with a son throwing an out of control/tantrum. You do NOT want to get wrapped up in that sittuation. The "man" may be an emotional 5 year old, and not be able to be reasoned with. His mother knows how to deal with him, but if another person gets involved, it may set him off even more. And autistic kids can be very violent and physical. Another reason to not get involved in domestic disputes.

    I understand the feeling of not wanting to stand by while someone gets beat down, but this is another case where if you pull your gun, the mother will probably turn against you, just like a lot of battered women will. Ugly all around.
    This is what I'm saying.

    The OP described a scenario in the original post and purposely left out details to make the situation appear to be something that it was not. If the OP had described the scenario how he actually saw it and not as how he wanted the readers of this thread to see it, my original response would have been totally different.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyz_grace View Post
    I think you might be misunderstanding the thread. He was telling a story and just walking us through his thought process. All of those details you mentioned are things he learned after the end of the original post.
    I understand that, but the OP is describing what he observed when he first saw who was causing the commotion and then chose not to disclose the rest of his initial observation.

    The OP said this in his original post:

    When I get there I can see a BIG white man (6'3" 300+), cussing at this woman knocking stuff off the shelf & threatening to hurt her. (It really looked like it could go bad FAST!)
    Right before he asked, "What would you do?"

    He left out the other details he witness...

    After a few seconds I realized the guy had some kind of mental illness and wanted his mom to buy something and she refused.
    It is kind of like saying, "I was just sitting there and all of a sudden I saw this big guy walk up to this woman and he starting beating her. What would you do?"

    Then later I tell you that I was sitting in a theater and the big guy and the woman were actors in the movie I was watching.

    Those are key details that change the story completely.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    I hear all sorts of bad LEO stories. But, my boys here in the south do a pretty good job! (I'm glad we don't have those pansy cops we here about in NYC, DC & other places that shoot first.)

    -
    I think that you should check yourself with a comment like that. I've been on the job in NY for 17 years, 5 of them in the South Bronx. I've managed to handle nearly everything one can think of WITHOUT shooting anyone. I've successfully TALKED many people into handcuffs or a visit to the hospital to TALK with someone. I also had my fair share of using force when necessary.

    I do take offense to this blanket comment about NYC Police Officers.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveJohnson View Post
    ...sounds like the poorly acted CPR/AED training videos I've had to suffer through. They go "You! Call 911 now!" in a horribly fake way.
    Sounds stupid but it does work.

    I can't tell you the number of times I've read someone's post on this forum that said something like, "don't ever take your eye off of the BG to pick up the phone to call 911".

    You never know when there might be something better for you to be doing with your time instead of talking to the 911 operator...such as saving someone's life.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    I hear all sorts of bad LEO stories. But, my boys here in the south do a pretty good job! (I'm glad we don't have those pansy cops we here about in NYC, DC & other places that shoot first.)
    Some of the finest people I've met and had the distinct pleasure of working with are the honorable men and women of the NYPD.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Some of the finest people I've met and had the distinct pleasure of working with are the honorable men and women of the NYPD.
    I know a few myself. A good friend is a retired officer of the NYPD. He has been stabbed & shot multiple times which finally lead to early retirement.

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  8. #38
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    Sorry, multi qoute is not working!
    I'd quickly scan the people around me and I'd point to one of the more responsible looking adults and I'd give them the following command: "You! Call 911 immediately! Tell them they MUST send the police NOW! Will you do that for me?" Hopefully the first person I instruct responds with a yes. By doing this I can place my full concentration on where it needs to be.

    Since he is already "threatening to hurt her" and "It really looked like it could go bad FAST!", I'd attempt to deescalate the situation while maintaining a safe distance. I'd shout from behind cover at the end of the aisle. I'd say something like, "STOP! STOP! STOP! The Police have been called! Please back away from one another! The police are on their way." Hopefully this will result in some sort of deescalation and we can all wait for the police to arrive without further incident. If it doesn't, I'd continue to say the same thing until the police arrive or until it became evident that physical harm was imminent.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Sounds stupid but it does work.

    I can't tell you the number of times I've read someone's post on this forum that said something like, "don't ever take your eye off of the BG to pick up the phone to call 911".

    You never know when there might be something better for you to be doing with your time instead of talking to the 911 operator...such as saving someone's life.
    In reference to this:
    Originally Posted by CaveJohnson
    ...sounds like the poorly acted CPR/AED training videos I've had to suffer through. They go "You! Call 911 now!" in a horribly fake way.
    CaveJoohnson is right LOL. Now, seriously. Just a point to consider. What would you do after your commands if the person did not comply?Keep asking others? You would also be seeking cover....Could you not have called 911 yourself and that way explain the details as you see them? Who knows what the dude or dudette is telling the 911 operator. If you want to be in control of the situation, be in control. Just imagine in this scenario what could happen:

    Dude/Dudette:911, ah, this guy was yelling at me to call you and now he is hiding at the end of the aile yelling at this fat dude who is yelling at this chick.....ah, excuse me, no, we are all just hanging out here. ...Ah, yes, that is correct, it is the Walmart that the manager has called. Thank you

    Sounds like THAT could not happen? Be careful how other folks will react for you.
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  9. #39
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    Run over to the sporting goods section, load up a paintball gun and empty it into him. The slimey blob would be crying after a few dozen hits. Keep firing. Cover him with foam packing peanuts or breadcrumbs. Roll him out the back door.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon10125 View Post
    Call 911 be a good witness until it escalated to actual physical abuse. At that point I would hope employees had stepped in. Seems like there is some connection between the two and until it escalated to violence everything was still ok in my book. No crime against screaming at a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by mg27 View Post
    Same as what everyone else said, call 911 & Stand by sort of at a distance and take mental notes Most important I'd wip out my cell and record the incident, I'd do that very sneaky so not to piss hhim off more. .



    ^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^^^


    Only I would let him see me with the cell phone vid going, it may slow his rage and take his focus off of her.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Don't you think this is a key detail that totally changes the scenario:



    And this statement is misleading since you knew that it was a mother and son:



    You also said this:



    While true, that is not exactly what you witnessed. You witnessed what was obviously a mother trying to handle her mentally challenged son who was in the midst of an emotional outburst.


    ^^^^^^^^Thats not how I took his post..
    I feel he was trying to get us to really assess the situation,understand it for what it is, and it sounded as though the info came to him piecemeal, just as he posted to us. He didn't have all the facts as soon as he turned down the aisle.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Sorry, multi qoute is not working!




    In reference to this:


    CaveJoohnson is right LOL. Now, seriously. Just a point to consider. What would you do after your commands if the person did not comply?Keep asking others? You would also be seeking cover....Could you not have called 911 yourself and that way explain the details as you see them? Who knows what the dude or dudette is telling the 911 operator. If you want to be in control of the situation, be in control. Just imagine in this scenario what could happen:

    Dude/Dudette:911, ah, this guy was yelling at me to call you and now he is hiding at the end of the aile yelling at this fat dude who is yelling at this chick.....ah, excuse me, no, we are all just hanging out here. ...Ah, yes, that is correct, it is the Walmart that the manager has called. Thank you

    Sounds like THAT could not happen? Be careful how other folks will react for you.
    That was in response to what the OP originally posted: "A BIG...man cussing at this woman knocking stuff off the shelf & threatening to hurt her. (It really looked like it could go bad FAST!)" This big man is already threatening to physically harm a woman and it looks "like it could go bad FAST!"

    The OP also stated that there were other witnesses: this is who I'd instruct to call 911...someone who is also a witness to what is happening. If they say no, hopefully there are others who overheard me and will either step up and volunteer to make the call or will respond to my next question which would be something like, who here will call 911 for me? I would not call 911 myself unless or until the opportunity presented itself and it was safe to do so. Dialing a phone and speaking to a 911 operator is not the same as a LEO pressing a button and radioing for backup. These are two very different operations and should be treated as such. When and if a situation arises that requires my full attention, I don't want to be glancing down at my cell phone while I press 911 send and I don't want to be distracted by answering the 911 operator's questions. My focus needs to be on the situation in front of me so that I can act or react as need be.

    If I'm shouting this: "STOP! STOP! STOP! The Police have been called! Please back away from one another! The police are on their way." at the BIG man that both me and the other witness just observed threatening to physically harm the woman and this witness who calls 911 after I instructed them to do so tells the 911 operator that I might be a BG in this situation then I can only hope that the LEOs who show up are a little more intelligent than the idiot witness who called 911. Hopefully the 911 operator is smart enough to ask the caller "What is the guy who told you to call 911 shouting?" and hopefully the caller is intelligent enough to respond with something like, "He is saying, 'STOP! STOP! STOP! The Police have been called! Please back away from one another! The police are on their way.' and he just keeps repeating that." Then hopefully the 911 operator asks the caller, "Who is he saying that to?" and hopefully the caller says something like, "he is saying it to the BIG man who is threatening to hurt the woman" and then gives a description of the two people involved in the altercation. Hopefully the LEOs will realize that the guy who is shouting "STOP! STOP! STOP! The Police have been called! Please back away from one another! The police are on their way." at the person/persons who are engaged in an altercation with one another is probably someone who is most likely saying what he is saying because he wants the altercation to stop.

    I must be real silly to rely on the 911 operator and LEOs to do well what they are trained to do.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    ^^^^^^^^Thats not how I took his post..
    I feel he was trying to get us to really assess the situation,understand it for what it is, and it sounded as though the info came to him piecemeal, just as he posted to us. He didn't have all the facts as soon as he turned down the aisle.
    Sure he did.

    He new this within "a few seconds", not minutes, "a few seconds":

    After a few seconds I realized the guy had some kind of mental illness and wanted his mom to buy something and she refused.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    That was in response to what the OP originally posted: "A BIG...man cussing at this woman knocking stuff off the shelf & threatening to hurt her. (It really looked like it could go bad FAST!)" This big man is already threatening to physically harm a woman and it looks "like it could go bad FAST!"

    The OP also stated that there were other witnesses: this is who I'd instruct to call 911...someone who is also a witness to what is happening. If they say no, hopefully there are others who overheard me and will either step up and volunteer to make the call or will respond to my next question which would be something like, who here will call 911 for me? I would not call 911 myself unless or until the opportunity presented itself and it was safe to do so. Dialing a phone and speaking to a 911 operator is not the same as a LEO pressing a button and radioing for backup. These are two very different operations and should be treated as such. When and if a situation arises that requires my full attention, I don't want to be glancing down at my cell phone while I press 911 send and I don't want to be distracted by answering the 911 operator's questions. My focus needs to be on the situation in front of me so that I can act or react as need be.

    If I'm shouting this: "STOP! STOP! STOP! The Police have been called! Please back away from one another! The police are on their way." at the BIG man that both me and the other witness just observed threatening to physically harm the woman and this witness who calls 911 after I instructed them to do so tells the 911 operator that I might be a BG in this situation then I can only hope that the LEOs who show up are a little more intelligent than the idiot witness who called 911. Hopefully the 911 operator is smart enough to ask the caller "What is the guy who told you to call 911 shouting?" and hopefully the caller is intelligent enough to respond with something like, "He is saying, 'STOP! STOP! STOP! The Police have been called! Please back away from one another! The police are on their way.' and he just keeps repeating that." Then hopefully the 911 operator asks the caller, "Who is he saying that to?" and hopefully the caller says something like, "he is saying it to the BIG man who is threatening to hurt the woman" and then gives a description of the two people involved in the altercation. Hopefully the LEOs will realize that the guy who is shouting "STOP! STOP! STOP! The Police have been called! Please back away from one another! The police are on their way." at the person/persons who are engaged in an altercation with one another is probably someone who is most likely saying what he is saying because he wants the altercation to stop.

    I must be real silly to rely on the 911 operator and LEOs to do well what they are trained to do.
    Just saying....Op states that big guys are observing at the end of the aisle..you say you will be taking cover behind something at the end of the aisle. I am sorry, I am just trying to picture you with all of these folks hanging around the same place you are taking cover while you are yelling commands. I am going going strictly by the OP. Don't you think it would look odd to folks that do not seem concerned and not taking cover that some guy (you) is.

    I do understand what you are trying to do. But I just can't get this comical picture out of my head:A man hiding behind cover where other folks are just standing around....sorry.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    It is kind of like saying, "I was just sitting there and all of a sudden I saw this big guy walk up to this woman and he starting beating her. What would you do?"

    Then later I tell you that I was sitting in a theater and the big guy and the woman were actors in the movie I was watching.
    I don't think that's a fair comparison.

    He new this within "a few seconds", not minutes, "a few seconds":
    You could have said, "I would wait a few seconds and assess the situation to make sure there was not more to this situation than initially appeared."

    I think the point of the post was that when you first come upon a situation, you have a very basic idea of what's going on, and what do you do at that point? Do you immediately react, or do you wait a bit longer to fully assess the situation? He did say he immediately thought it was a domestic husband/wife thing, but it was clear that that was before he actually went to go look. I think it was a good example of the importance of checking out all your surroundings (like seeing if someone else has called 911 already) and waiting just a minute until you're 100% sure of what's going on (as long as no one is in physical danger just yet). That's how I took it. I don't think he was trying to trick anyone.

    I understand the feeling of not wanting to stand by while someone gets beat down, but this is another case where if you pull your gun, the mother will probably turn against you, just like a lot of battered women will. Ugly all around.
    This. The psychological dynamic is something to consider. My instructor was telling a story yesterday of a friend of his that witnessed a man beating the hell out of his girlfriend in the street outside his house. He called 9-1-1, then got his gun, told the man to stop, then the man charged him, and he shot him. The girl immediately told police, "This guy shot my boyfriend for no reason!" I think he may have been saved by that initial 9-1-1 call (and...she was covered in her own blood from her head getting bashed into a windshield), but it's a good reminder that some people's psyches are so messed up (or the situation is just more complicated that you originally think, like a mother and her mentally ill son) that they don't always want you to get involved. Something to consider.
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