Real Scenario at my local Wally World

This is a discussion on Real Scenario at my local Wally World within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This post is a good example and reminder of how things may not be as they seem, which is why it is absolutely imperative to ...

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  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    This post is a good example and reminder of how things may not be as they seem, which is why it is absolutely imperative to think very carefully about intervening on the behalf of someone else. In this particular instance, I think I would have left the area and let the store staff and management handle the situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Since he is already "threatening to hurt her" and "It really looked like it could go bad FAST!", I'd attempt to deescalate the situation while maintaining a safe distance. I'd shout from behind cover at the end of the aisle. I'd say something like, "STOP! STOP! STOP! The Police have been called! Please back away from one another! The police are on their way." Hopefully this will result in some sort of deescalation and we can all wait for the police to arrive without further incident. If it doesn't, I'd continue to say the same thing until the police arrive or until it became evident that physical harm was imminent.
    With respect to the above, I am of mixed opinion on how effective this would be as a deescalation tactic. Depending on the circumstances, it might actually make things worse as it assumes that said individual will be respond to the threat of police by calming down because they recognize them as an authoritative force to which they are going to willing submit. In the case of this person, which by the sounds of it has significant mental retardation or disability, they may not even understand the concept of police and may find your use of a "command voice" to be a threat or challenge. The same thing could also happen with a psychotic individual too. In either case, this approach may be ineffective or worse, make you the intended target. On the other hand, a more sane individual may simply determine they have somewhere else to be RIGHT NOW (i.e. get out of Dodge before the cavalry arrives), which would serve as an immediate and effective deescalation.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stetson View Post
    Glad noone got hurt! I am not six three so I always keep potenial danger at least 21 feet.I think when posts like this come up we must remember you are only suppose to engaged your weapon if you feel your life is at risk.This post is exactly the way
    it should be handled.If you want to jump in every confromtation apply to be a cop. Thanks for a great post!!!!
    I don't remember anyone mentioning that they would pull a weapon in this situation.

    I don't remember anyone mentioning that they would jump into the middle of this confrontation nor do I remember anyone mentioning that they would approach the two individuals involved in the confrontation.

    One doesn't have to be a cop to help someone who is in need. I'm pretty sure that just about everyone here would hope that someone (not just a cop) would come to their aid if their life was in danger. If your life was in danger, would you prefer that everyone stand around and watch you die or would you prefer that someone jumped into the middle of the confrontation and saved your life?
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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    This post is a good example and reminder of how things may not be as they seem, which is why it is absolutely imperative to think very carefully about intervening on the behalf of someone else. In this particular instance, I think I would have left the area and let the store staff and management handle the situation.

    With respect to the above, I am of mixed opinion on how effective this would be as a deescalation tactic. Depending on the circumstances, it might actually make things worse as it assumes that said individual will be respond to the threat of police by calming down because they recognize them as an authoritative force to which they are going to willing submit. In the case of this person, which by the sounds of it has significant mental retardation or disability, they may not even understand the concept of police and may find your use of a "command voice" to be a threat or challenge. The same thing could also happen with a psychotic individual too. In either case, this approach may be ineffective or worse, make you the intended target. On the other hand, a more sane individual may simply determine they have somewhere else to be RIGHT NOW (i.e. get out of Dodge before the cavalry arrives), which would serve as an immediate and effective deescalation.
    Please stop taking my statement out of context.

    That was a statement that was made before it was revealed by the OP that any reasonable person who observed the situation for a few more seconds would be able to conclude that the man has a mental handicap.

    Since I am a reasonable man, I would have been able to come to the same conclusion that the OP did (this is a mother with her mentally handicapped son) and I would not have stated anything close to what I originally stated.

    As I've stated before, my answer to "what would you do?" was in response to a BIG man (without a mental handicap/disorder) who was about to physically harm a woman. Would my actions be effective in deescalating the situation? Maybe. Maybe not.
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  5. #64
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    Real Scenario at my local Wally World

    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Please stop taking my statement out of context.
    (Snip for brevity)
    My apologies. I wasn't try to take your statement out of the context of not knowing about the handicap. I mentioned this part of your response because it was unique and caught my attention. I felt that it was worthy of discussion. I did not mean it as a criticism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lyz_grace View Post
    I think you might be misunderstanding the thread. He was telling a story and just walking us through his thought process. All of those details you mentioned are things he learned after the end of the original post.
    Exactly, I think he was describing what he observed as he came upon the scene. He did not know that the guy was mentally challenged or that the woman involved was his mother. This is an excellent example of why it's important to kow what exactly is going on before you intervene in a situation. You might very well shoot the victum just as he was getting the upper hand on the assailant.

    I think the OP did an excellent job of letting us experience the event as he did, and I understand why it was layed out in the way it was. Good Job.
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    Re: Real Scenario at my local Wally World

    Great representation of how a situation unfolds. Yes, these things do often happen pretty quickly & you have to continually assess & re-asses until it's over.

    Kudos to the op.

    To the guy that thinks he was the butt of a joke, get over it & get over yourself. Be glad that it was here where you jumped to the wrong conclusion instead of in a real life situation.

    Sent from my GS 3 using Tapatalk 2
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    You have got to be kidding me!!!!

    We don't lock a person up in this country simply because they have a mental handicap. If it is proven that this person is a danger to himself or others then measured steps need to be taken to help prevent this person from harming himself and others but we don't lock up the handicapped because they have an emotional outburst which didn't harm anyone.
    I didn't say he should be locked up, I just asked why the mother felt he should be taken out in public. I'm sure this isn't the first time he's had an outburst like this. And this didn't sound like just an emotional outburst - he was throwing objects and threatening to hurt people. Now, as far as I know, that is something we do lock people up for!
    Ben

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  9. #68
    Senior Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad426 View Post
    What a let down. Really the suspense was built up to such a fever pitch there was no way you could live up to the hype. You know, kinda like Pearl Jam's second album...
    Dude... Who didn't like "VS"? That was one of my favorite albums of all time! I thought it was arguably better than "Ten" for a lot of reasons.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenGoodLuck View Post
    I didn't say he should be locked up, I just asked why the mother felt he should be taken out in public. I'm sure this isn't the first time he's had an outburst like this. And this didn't sound like just an emotional outburst - he was throwing objects and threatening to hurt people. Now, as far as I know, that is something we do lock people up for!
    You said:

    This guy doesn't sound like someone who should be out in public.
    Preventing someone from freely being in public is the same as locking them up. Regardless of whether or not bars and locks are used you are still restricting their ability to freely move about by telling that person that they cannot go outside and be in public.
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  11. #70
    Senior Member Array Bullet1234's Avatar
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    She married him,,,,,, she better know how to handle him,,,,,
    me unless i see him,,,, man handling her physically,,,, i will mind my own business.
    “A few elitists shouldn't rule the many. ”
    Better to have a 380 in your pocket than a 45 at HOME.
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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasCajun View Post
    Great representation of how a situation unfolds. Yes, these things do often happen pretty quickly & you have to continually assess & re-asses until it's over.

    Kudos to the op.

    To the guy that thinks he was the butt of a joke, get over it & get over yourself. Be glad that it was here where you jumped to the wrong conclusion instead of in a real life situation.

    Sent from my GS 3 using Tapatalk 2
    I totally understand that we always need to continually assess and reassess the situation and I always do that in real life.

    I thought the OP had done ALL the assessing and reassessing for the reader so that we could stick to actions we might take instead of trying to dream up every conceivable reassessment of the situation.

    I guess I am just use to getting a full assessment when a scenario is presented...usually when a scenario is given and the question of what would you do next is presented the appropriate response is to give what "actions" you would take...it is usually not up to or considered appropriate for the reader to change/alter/add to the scenario.

    I didn't jump to the wrong conclusion, I thought the OP had presented the conclusion. I guess I just totally misunderstood how you present "scenarios" here on this forum and once the OP revealed the rest of the scenario it felt like many of you were attacking me for statements that I made prior to all the facts being revealed and it seemed like the "attacks" were also implying that I would act inappropriately towards someone with a mental handicap and it rubbed me the wrong way.
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  13. #72
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    call 911 and record it with my cell phone (hidden).

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    You said:

    Preventing someone from freely being in public is the same as locking them up. Regardless of whether or not bars and locks are used you are still restricting their ability to freely move about by telling that person that they cannot go outside and be in public.
    The mother should be using better judgement and not taking her clearly volatile and unoredictable son out in public unless she can control him so he won't endanger himself or others.
    Ben

    Cogito, ergo armatum sum.
    I think, therefore I am armed.


    (Don Mann, The Modern Day Gunslinger; the ultimate handgun training manual)

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenGoodLuck View Post
    The mother should be using better judgement and not taking her clearly volatile and unoredictable son out in public unless she can control him so he won't endanger himself or others.
    No one got hurt and some food was thrown, and you want to keep this person from going out in public. That seems like a pretty extreme response. For all we know, he could have been throwing bags of marshmallows.

    If you feel so strongly about your desire to limit this person's freedom and truly feel that his mother's actions are placing him in a position that might endanger himself or others, then you should definitely act on your desire and take some real steps to try to take his and his mother's freedoms away instead of anonymously writing about it on a forum. I'm pretty sure with a little bit of effort on your part you could find out exactly where this happened and who these people are and where they live. There's probably a police report. Heck, the store might even have some video of the incident that might help you with your quest. You should get working on this right away. Go, turn those thoughts into actions. Don't forget to keep us posted on your progress.
    Regards,
    1MoreGoodGuy
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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mg27 View Post
    Same as what everyone else said, call 911 & Stand by sort of at a distance and take mental notes Most important I'd wip out my cell and record the incident, I'd do that very sneaky so not to piss hhim off more....
    Please understand, your whipping out a cell phone isn't going to alter the mindset of the victim of mental disease. Protect yourself. But, otherwise, engage as fully as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    When you say mental illness, do you mean phychological, or are you talking like Autism? Because that's what I think when I envision a mother with a son throwing an out of control/tantrum. You do NOT want to get wrapped up in that sittuation. The "man" may be an emotional 5 year old, and not be able to be reasoned with. His mother knows how to deal with him, but if another person gets involved, it may set him off even more. And autistic kids can be very violent and physical. Another reason to not get involved in domestic disputes.

    I understand the feeling of not wanting to stand by while someone gets beat down, but this is another case where if you pull your gun, the mother will probably turn against you, just like a lot of battered women will. Ugly all around.
    As the cops demonstrated, involvement of others doesn't fan the flames of mental illness. When you identify a mental health crisis, engage. Yeah, you may be talking to two victims of mental illness, compounding the situation and your need of self protection. But this is less of a self-defense scenario - though definite components are here - than a bad social encounter.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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