Reconsidering carrying one in the chamber.... - Page 7

Reconsidering carrying one in the chamber....

This is a discussion on Reconsidering carrying one in the chamber.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Something like over 80% of the fights begin at 10 feet or less. Does anyone really believe they have time to draw the gun and ...

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  1. #91
    Member Array lostone1413's Avatar
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    Something like over 80% of the fights begin at 10 feet or less. Does anyone really believe they have time to draw the gun and rack the slide? If someone is really worried about having one in the chamber my advice would be don't carry a gun until you get allot more training
    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.
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  2. #92
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    I always carry with one in and ready to go

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostone1413 View Post
    Something like over 80% of the fights begin at 10 feet or less. Does anyone really believe they have time to draw the gun and rack the slide? If someone is really worried about having one in the chamber my advice would be don't carry a gun until you get allot more training
    I would agree that if you're uncomfortable with a loaded chamber, then don't carry until you are. With a proper holster and quality firearm, there is ZERO reason the gun should go off. ND's happen from people drawing their guns to shows friends, carrying in a poor quality or badly worn holster, or no holster at all. MOST ND's happen while not even carrying. Most are while cleaning an "unloaded" gun. Modern, quality firearms don't just go off for fun. They don't have a brain. They don't think for themselves. In a quality holster where the trigger is covered and there is no chance of it accidentally being pulled (such as being carrying loosely "Mexican" style or in a pocket), There is absolutely no way for the firearm to fire unless all of the internal safeties simultaneously fail. There is an even slimmer chance of that happening than needing to use your firearm, which the chances of that happening are already small.

    If you need your gun. You need it NOW. Not in the 2-3 seconds it'll take you to draw from concealment, rack, and shoot. 2-3 seconds is a lifetime in a close attack. The 1.3-1.5 seconds it takes me to draw from concealment and get a shot on target is already long enough.

    So say you're incredibly awesome. You're able to draw, rack and shoot in just over 1.5 seconds. Who's to say you don't miss the "rack" under stress? Maybe you flub it up. Maybe you forget! If you're going to carry with an empty chamber and are set it your ways, train your butt off. Because you're going to need all the muscle memory you can get. Even carrying with one in the chamber, you have to train, ingrain the grip angle of your particular carry gun in your brain. You should be able to line up with sights without even looking at them. Racking the slide takes too much time, and just adds one, easy to screw up step that can be skipped just by carrying with a loaded chamber.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostone1413 View Post
    Something like over 80% of the fights begin at 10 feet or less. Does anyone really believe they have time to draw the gun and rack the slide? If someone is really worried about having one in the chamber my advice would be don't carry a gun until you get allot more training
    You know we are all so used to thinking in terms of the 21 foot "rule" it is often forgotten that indeed trouble
    happens close up, @10 feet as you point out.

    There are a lot of implications about how one might defend against the various scenarios possible at that 10
    foot distance. An attacker moving at only 6 mph will close 8.8 feet of that distance in one second.
    At 7 mph they will have made contact and pushed you back about 4 inches
    in 1 second. Those are light jog speeds for young men; 9 and 10 minute miles. Imagine
    what the speeds really are when someone "explodes" into action.

    Neither speed (6 or 7 foot per second) requires significant athletic prowess. Take into account also
    that the human arm extends 2.5 - 3 feet. There is well under a second to perceive the motion, understand it as an
    attack, and respond.

    Most of us won't even get a hand on a gun, let alone clear the holster before needing to duck, parry, block,
    slip. If we are lucky we won't get stabbed and may be able to make space, draw and fire while being
    pressed.

    Bottom line, carrying may not be a futile act but drawing is far from the likely first response that is going to be
    needed. And, drawing at that distance might get you disarmed as well.

    I think it is wise to carry with one in the pipe and to practice point-shooting, but it is also necessary to be
    realistic about the time frame for reaction and counter reaction, and do something to practice these
    in some simulation of real world situations.

    P.S. G-d made elbows and knees for a reason.
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  5. #95
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    You know we are all so used to thinking in terms of the 21 foot "rule" it is often forgotten that indeed trouble
    happens close up, @10 feet as you point out.

    There are a lot of implications about how one might defend against the various scenarios possible at that 10
    foot distance. An attacker moving at only 6 mph will close 8.8 feet of that distance in one second.
    At 7 mph they will have made contact and pushed you back about 4 inches
    in 1 second. Those are light jog speeds for young men; 9 and 10 minute miles. Imagine
    what the speeds really are when someone "explodes" into action.

    Neither speed (6 or 7 foot per second) requires significant athletic prowess. Take into account also
    that the human arm extends 2.5 - 3 feet. There is well under a second to perceive the motion, understand it as an
    attack, and respond.

    Most of us won't even get a hand on a gun, let alone clear the holster before needing to duck, parry, block,
    slip. If we are lucky we won't get stabbed and may be able to make space, draw and fire while being
    pressed.

    Bottom line, carrying may not be a futile act but drawing is far from the likely first response that is going to be
    needed. And, drawing at that distance might get you disarmed as well.

    I think it is wise to carry with one in the pipe and to practice point-shooting, but it is also necessary to be
    realistic about the time frame for reaction and counter reaction, and do something to practice these
    in some simulation of real world situations.

    P.S. G-d made elbows and knees for a reason.
    The exact reason that a lot of my shooting involves drawing and shooting while moving. Side step as I draw, or back pedal. I will at times start by standing directly in front of my target, and start to draw as I move backwards, and maybe sometimes at a slight angle. The point is, since most attacks are within 10ft, that means you gotta move! The 21ft rule is based on you not moving. Instinct will likely make you move anyway. Nobody will naturally draw and carefully try and make shots standing still while a guy charges them with a weapon. So it's good to at least practice to shoot while moving. Unfortunately my range is a little restrictive on the things I'm able to do, so I have to pick certain times to go when I'm sure it won't be busy....

    Even so, what they call the OODA loop is your main opponent. Within 10ft, well trained or not, your attacker will be on you before you even know what's happening. That doesn't mean training is pointless. It will give you an extra edge. It won't make you a superhero, but an extra edge never hurts.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    I
    So say you're incredibly awesome. You're able to draw, rack and shoot in just over 1.5 seconds.
    With an attack that starts from 10 feet you don't have even that 1.5 seconds. You will be run over in less than
    1 second by someone moving at a jogging pacer the rough equivalent of 9 minute miles, and that doesn't take into
    account distance "shortening" with an extended forearm or a kick. Convert Miles Per Hour to Feet Per Second | Miles Per Hour to Feet Per Second Calculator

    I'm all for one in the pipe, but it won't make a difference in this short distance, at least as far as the very first
    initial reaction. Seriously, how many are going to perceive that an attack is happening and clear the holster before
    being run over. How many of us are even going to perceive the attack and get off the X in under 1 sec?

    Just a dose of realism.
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  7. #97
    JMB
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    OP,

    First, I wonder why the COP waited to confront this guy about his intentions?

    Concerning your question, what exactly is it you fear could happen that led you carry with chamber empty? I am not going to second guess your reasoning, but I don't think you have really identified the specific problem as you see it. Do you think maybe the kids could accidentally discharge the weapon while it is on your person or is it something else?

    Back to the incident you described, in hind sight, what could you have done differently to keep the unknown person at a distance?

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    With an attack that starts from 10 feet you don't have even that 1.5 seconds. You will be run over in less than
    1 second by someone moving at a jogging pacer the rough equivalent of 9 minute miles, and that doesn't take into
    account distance "shortening" with an extended forearm or a kick. Convert Miles Per Hour to Feet Per Second | Miles Per Hour to Feet Per Second Calculator

    I'm all for one in the pipe, but it won't make a difference in this short distance, at least as far as the very first
    initial reaction. Seriously, how many are going to perceive that an attack is happening and clear the holster before
    being run over. How many of us are even going to perceive the attack and get off the X in under 1 sec?

    Just a dose of realism.
    I'm with you on this and there are some instructors out there who address these problems. Southnarc for one.

  9. #99
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    With an attack that starts from 10 feet you don't have even that 1.5 seconds. You will be run over in less than
    1 second by someone moving at a jogging pacer the rough equivalent of 9 minute miles, and that doesn't take into
    account distance "shortening" with an extended forearm or a kick. Convert Miles Per Hour to Feet Per Second | Miles Per Hour to Feet Per Second Calculator

    I'm all for one in the pipe, but it won't make a difference in this short distance, at least as far as the very first
    initial reaction. Seriously, how many are going to perceive that an attack is happening and clear the holster before
    being run over. How many of us are even going to perceive the attack and get off the X in under 1 sec?

    Just a dose of realism.
    I agree with you 100%. Read my last post. OODA loop is what gets you killed. Almost impossible to train it out of your system.

    1.5 seconds is the best you're going to be able to with mediocre skills. Even that will not help you. But even so, adding that extra step, taking even LONGER would be nonsense.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Oh no here come the new guys who think that under stress they can draw, chamber, engage and hit their target because they watched a youtube video's and the Israeli's do it.


    ^^^^^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^

    But honestly, they can drive a car, change the radio station, talk on the cell phone & chew gum at the same time right?

    Why WOULDN"T they be able to do something so mundane and easy as rack a slide.

    While 2-3 punks have them by the throat.
    Because THEIR SA is Soooo much better than everyone elses, right?
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  11. #101
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    I love the condition1 advice from those of you who have never been in a gunfight or knive fight for that matter. Im ok with your opinions , however you all speak as though you have it all figured out. you do not.
    I say carry however you are comfortable . just carry.
    Also most civilian shootings happen in the home ,how many of you always have your weapon clsoe at hand..? ready for that quick draw you keep writing about.

  12. #102
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    vstromrider.

    Many, Many people on this forum have been carrying a gun longer than you have been alive I bet. Many have been in SD situations over the years in uniform and out and many, including me, carry a gun for a living.

    So for the sake of everyone please tell us of you stories of SD, H2H and defense against armed attackers? It seems that you are of the opinion of "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".

    If you want to prove your point make a video and post it of you drawing, chambering, engaging and hitting your target before you are donkey stomped by your opponent. Start at say 7 yards and work your way into 1 yard lets see how you do.

    I carry in my home, on the road, at the store and everywhere else I am legally allowed to do so. I am not a paranoid individual just prepared for whatever may happen. I can defend myself at 7 yards or 7 inches and the fact remains that carrying with a round unchambered you cannot. You are correct though carry anyway you are comfortable but do not say you are just as prepared as someone who carries locked and loaded. You are simply untrained.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #103
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by vstromrider View Post
    Also most civilian shootings happen in the home ,how many of you always have your weapon clsoe at hand..? ready for that quick draw you keep writing about.
    J-frame in my pocket right now. All five chambers loaded.

  14. #104
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Reconsidering carrying one in the chamber....

    Forget the 10, 20, 21, whatever foot rule for a minute. What about an active shooter in public with YOU being the first target? His first shot? Your off hand or arm. Your "slide rackin'" hand. Uh oh, I haven't practiced racking the slide on my belt, leg or an object nearby. Sure wish I had a round chambered. Uh oh again. Here he comes.

    Yeah, it can happen.
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  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    J-frame in my pocket right now. All five chambers loaded.

    ^^^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    I also will have something at my side when at home.


    For anyone who does NOT carry with one in the chamber, do you drive around NOT wearing your seatbelt, thinking when/if and accident occurs, you will have time to buckle?

    I WILL carry with a loaded firearm; you can have delusional happy thoughts of being some action hero in a hollywood movie, thinking you will be afforded time to "rack the slide", cause hey, it happens in the movies, right?
    Last edited by oneshot; November 23rd, 2012 at 01:18 PM.
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