Reconsidering carrying one in the chamber....

This is a discussion on Reconsidering carrying one in the chamber.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tacman605 So for the sake of everyone please tell us of you stories of SD, H2H and defense against armed attackers? It ...

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  1. #106
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    So for the sake of everyone please tell us of you stories of SD, H2H and defense against armed attackers? It seems that you are of the opinion of "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".

    If you want to prove your point make a video and post it of you drawing, chambering, engaging and hitting your target before you are donkey stomped by your opponent. Start at say 7 yards and work your way into 1 yard lets see how you do.
    - I also wouldn't mind seeing a video of Israeli carry in disadvantageous situations (opponent on top of you, fending off an opponent with one arm, etc.). It's odd how all Israeli carry quick draw videos are of a person standing with two free hands and no opposition.
    oneshot and Spec like this.
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  3. #107
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    Each of us moves in different circumstances and places. Our relative risks from different
    forms of attack vary. Israeli carry might make sense for some and no sense for others. That said,
    our initial post was about the guy in the parking lot @ maybe 20 feet. I still am having a hard
    time understanding why danger was perceived when there was a marked police car immediately
    nearby and known to be providing security for the lot.

    Is it possible that the "man in black" the officer spoke with was working WITH that officer
    on lot security; one on foot in civilian clothes and one in the marked car?

    I'm just not understanding why danger was perceived in this specific circumstance.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  4. #108
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    I prefer C3 but have an open mind to C1 as there are obvious benefits in an SD scenario. As someone who prefers C3, I'm well aware of the fact I'm handicapping myself against some scenarios but my weapon, thanks to diligent practice, can be brought to ready in a split second longer than a C1 firearm.

    A recent thread on here showed how a woman carrying her weapon in Condition 4 had no problems bringing her weapon into action and successfully defended her and her son. Condition 3 can and has long been utilized as a safe and effective means for carry....C3 carriers just need to realize the limitations and be prepared to act accordingly.

    Unfortunately, some of the most safe/experienced firearms handlers make mistakes, fail to follow the four rules, and have ND's. I wish we could ask Steve Malloy his thoughts on the matter. I think it's important to weigh the risk of ND vs the risk of being in an SD scenario where you won't have time to rack the slide. I'm guessing there are a bunch more ND's than there are occurrences where CCW'ers have to fire their guns in self defense.

    It all comes down to personal preference and how you choose to distribute risk.
    Hopyard and vstromrider like this.

  5. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    vstromrider.

    Many, Many people on this forum have been carrying a gun longer than you have been alive I bet. Many have been in SD situations over the years in uniform and out and many, including me, carry a gun for a living.

    So for the sake of everyone please tell us of you stories of SD, H2H and defense against armed attackers? It seems that you are of the opinion of "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".

    If you want to prove your point make a video and post it of you drawing, chambering, engaging and hitting your target before you are donkey stomped by your opponent. Start at say 7 yards and work your way into 1 yard lets see how you do.

    I carry in my home, on the road, at the store and everywhere else I am legally allowed to do so. I am not a paranoid individual just prepared for whatever may happen. I can defend myself at 7 yards or 7 inches and the fact remains that carrying with a round unchambered you cannot. You are correct though carry anyway you are comfortable but do not say you are just as prepared as someone who carries locked and loaded. You are simply untrained.
    I am 51 years old. have had my CCP since 93. 2 years on a tactical unit with the state, have won combat matches high ranking in judo and juijitsu, have been thru a riot at the prison . pulling armed inmates out of burning structures during that riot. Dealt with stabbings ,armed inmates again > 1 officer to 150 inmates. worked in kitchen security < alone< unarmed while inmates used many sharp knives to make food.
    Had to deal with 1 armed confrontaion directed toward me near my home. 6 years in the military 2 of that in Turkey during 80-82 when terrorist were shooting people ( Lost a First Sergeant < shot< next to our post office there. Have been to Front sight ,Train in the local FAST shooting club Trained with The Border Patrols SRT . Trained with JR Frye ( UFC champion) who was part of our dojo

    I am not an expert but neither are you... I carry chamber loaded in all of my pistols except my 380 and my one M&P that does not have a thumb safety. I like to take the side of empty chamber simply to let those (experts) know there is another side of this. You experts can be annoying in your pushing this issue. Those of you that have never worn a badge or been in combat have no idea except what you have read in a book or online.. I am slightly paranoid person. I had my life threatened many times at work ( State Prison) at least 3 of those I considered serious enough to report. My home is alarmed, I have a 1 acre fence with a strand of barbed wire around the top . I take security of my self and my loved ones very serious. And I say dont tell folks they have to carry condition 1 with out knowing them or walking in their shoes.
    With some practice You can carry condition 3 and be very fast.

    The Sight 1911 Conditions of Readiness Page there are no finer people than law abiding armed citizens let the real experts and trainer help these folks decide. Offer you opinions but how about a disclaimer that you only play an expert online....

  6. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    I prefer C3 but have an open mind to C1 as there are obvious benefits in an SD scenario. As someone who prefers C3, I'm well aware of the fact I'm handicapping myself against some scenarios but my weapon, thanks to diligent practice, can be brought to ready in a split second longer than a C1 firearm.

    A recent thread on here showed how a woman carrying her weapon in Condition 4 had no problems bringing her weapon into action and successfully defended her and her son. Condition 3 can and has long been utilized as a safe and effective means for carry....C3 carriers just need to realize the limitations and be prepared to act accordingly.

    Unfortunately, some of the most safe/experienced firearms handlers make mistakes, fail to follow the four rules, and have ND's. I wish we could ask Steve Malloy his thoughts on the matter. I think it's important to weigh the risk of ND vs the risk of being in an SD scenario where you won't have time to rack the slide. I'm guessing there are a bunch more ND's than there are occurrences where CCW'ers have to fire their guns in self defense.

    It all comes down to personal preference and how you choose to distribute risk.
    When this happened and was discussed here, did anyone discuss the weapon itself? A 1903 Colt?

    Because I am under the impression that modern semi-autos wont discharge accidentally when dropped. Did his older Colt not have the internal safeties to prevent that or have I gotten the wrong info on today's semi-autos?

    Thanks

    Edit: I looked up that gun and it is a revolver, not an early semi-auto. Was never 'drop-safe.'
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post

    It all comes down to personal preference and how you choose to distribute risk.
    I think this is an excellent statement regarding many things discussed here on the forum. I'd probably add 'training' to make it complete.

    I do carry C1 however
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #112
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    I carry a DB9 all day, everyday with one in the chamber without any problems.

  9. #113
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    Reconsidering carrying one in the chamber? You won't get an argument from me.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

    Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.

  10. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by vstromrider View Post

    I am not an expert but neither are you... I carry chamber loaded in all of my pistols except my 380 and my one M&P that does not have a thumb safety.
    Just curious, what is your 380 and why do you not carry it with one in the chamber as you
    do your others, except the M&P?
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  11. #115
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    "Have no idea" huh...
    Well Vstromrider........You don't have to be LE or a combat veteran to be a victim of an attempted robbery in the dark of the early morining hours......happened to me twice......the first at a distance of about 8 feet that separated us......luckily my Model 36 was in my coat pocket in hand and pointed right at the X and not in a holster under my coat....the BG could sense it and decided to leave after his demand for money was denied.....a good decision for both of us.
    And yes.............always carry with 1 in the chamber or your betting against your own life......been there, done that.......Twice.

  12. #116
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    vstromrider.

    Wow. So let me get this straight. You are a former LEO, Corrections Officers, Tactical Officer or trained with them and participate in combat oriented shooting sports, apparently by your statements are proficient in unarmed combat and are still worried about carrying a round in the chamber because you are more worried about a ND than you are about someone killing you before you have a chance to chamber a round and fire? You really need to get out more.

    I am guessing the point of the 1911 link was about Condition 3 carry. Yep absolutely correct can't go bang if there is no round in the chamber. The car can't get in an accident if it sits in the garage either but to each his own.

    In regards to your other comments about disclaimers and internet experts. You can take it for what it is worth. I have been there, done that, got the t-shirt, built a wing on the gift shop, and I am now working on the ownership level of said shop. I practice what I preach and preach only what works because that is what keeps me alive.

    I practice my trade in the armpits of the world and so far for six years what I preach and what I practice has kept me from having anymore holes in me than the good lord gave me to start with. Anytime however if you would care to come and see what world I live and work in get your passport and fly on over. I would advise chambering a round though the Taliban don't see much UFC or kitchen security over here.

    You carry the way you want it makes no difference to me, it's your life and your choice. If you are not trained enough or comfortable around certain firearms that are perfectly safe carrying a round chambered either switch brands or get more training. It's all on you, I choose to carry with a round chambered as does my wife, friends, and coworkers. My Glock 19 sits here beside me now with a round in the chamber and it has not gone off all day.

    Tokerblue. You probably won't see one either. There has been so much internet myth as to the Israeli Carry Method that no one knows what to believe anymore. The best explanation was from an IDF officer that I met in Lebanon years ago he stated simply that many citizens/soldiers carry a variety of handguns. Keeping the chamber empty is simply the best way when there are so many different operating mechanisms available. When the citizen/soldiers are issued a certain type weapon and trained with it then they simply carry a round in the chamber as he did with his BHP. As I stated before with enough time and distance you would be able to draw, chamber and acquire a target but up close and personal you won't make it.

    Carrying with a round in the chamber is a matter of choice. If for whatever reason you are not comfortable carrying with one in the pipe then don't but do not say that you are just as prepared as someone who does. Simply put it takes either two hands or a proper alternate method training to be able to rack the slide with one hand. When someone is on top of you punching you in the face you are simply not going to be able to do it.

    9MMare. Modern semi auto pistols, unless there is a mechanical fault or broken part, will not go off when dropped, thrown or anything else. The original Glock testing video by, if I remember right, the Georgia State Police showed the same Glock 17 with a primed case in the chamber thrown, run over, dropped from a helicopter, bounced off the concrete and everything else they could do to it and the weapon never discharged. Most/many striker fired handguns are designed in the same way. Keep your finger off the trigger and it won't go bang.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    9MMare. Modern semi auto pistols, unless there is a mechanical fault or broken part, will not go off when dropped, thrown or anything else. The original Glock testing video by, if I remember right, the Georgia State Police showed the same Glock 17 with a primed case in the chamber thrown, run over, dropped from a helicopter, bounced off the concrete and everything else they could do to it and the weapon never discharged. Most/many striker fired handguns are designed in the same way. Keep your finger off the trigger and it won't go bang.
    Thanks. This has been my understanding.

    Last spring in a nearby school, a kid, like 9 or so, brought in modern semi-auto, .45...I think it was an XD...into school in his backpack.

    He accidentally shot a schoolmate who barely survived. On the news, they continually said that it went off accidentally, that it went off when he dropped the backpack on his desk. It has really made me frustrated to hear something that was innaccurate and would only inflame anit-gun people more.

    To perpetuate the belief that guns 'go off accidentally.' I dont know if the media was intentionally deceiving the public, if they or the authorities were protecting the boy by going with the 'dropped backpack' story, or what. Not to mention that the distance to drop a backpack on a desk is pretty minor.

    I often write to the media and police depts when I hear of stuff like this...I did not in this case because they decided not to charge the boy and he'll still have to live with it the rest of his life. I dont think he meant to shoot the gun at all but I bet that he did indeed have his hand on it in that backpack and accidentally pulled the trigger. And that there's no way for me to prove anything anyway. But the blatant BS fed to the public just bothers me.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    vstromrider.

    Wow. So let me get this straight. You are a former LEO, Corrections Officers, Tactical Officer or trained with them and participate in combat oriented shooting sports, apparently by your statements are proficient in unarmed combat and are still worried about carrying a round in the chamber because you are more worried about a ND than you are about someone killing you before you have a chance to chamber a round and fire? You really need to get out more.

    I am guessing the point of the 1911 link was about Condition 3 carry. Yep absolutely correct can't go bang if there is no round in the chamber. The car can't get in an accident if it sits in the garage either but to each his own.

    In regards to your other comments about disclaimers and internet experts. You can take it for what it is worth. I have been there, done that, got the t-shirt, built a wing on the gift shop, and I am now working on the ownership level of said shop. I practice what I preach and preach only what works because that is what keeps me alive.

    I practice my trade in the armpits of the world and so far for six years what I preach and what I practice has kept me from having anymore holes in me than the good lord gave me to start with. Anytime however if you would care to come and see what world I live and work in get your passport and fly on over. I would advise chambering a round though the Taliban don't see much UFC or kitchen security over here.

    You carry the way you want it makes no difference to me, it's your life and your choice. If you are not trained enough or comfortable around certain firearms that are perfectly safe carrying a round chambered either switch brands or get more training. It's all on you, I choose to carry with a round chambered as does my wife, friends, and coworkers. My Glock 19 sits here beside me now with a round in the chamber and it has not gone off all day.

    Tokerblue. You probably won't see one either. There has been so much internet myth as to the Israeli Carry Method that no one knows what to believe anymore. The best explanation was from an IDF officer that I met in Lebanon years ago he stated simply that many citizens/soldiers carry a variety of handguns. Keeping the chamber empty is simply the best way when there are so many different operating mechanisms available. When the citizen/soldiers are issued a certain type weapon and trained with it then they simply carry a round in the chamber as he did with his BHP. As I stated before with enough time and distance you would be able to draw, chamber and acquire a target but up close and personal you won't make it.

    Carrying with a round in the chamber is a matter of choice. If for whatever reason you are not comfortable carrying with one in the pipe then don't but do not say that you are just as prepared as someone who does. Simply put it takes either two hands or a proper alternate method training to be able to rack the slide with one hand. When someone is on top of you punching you in the face you are simply not going to be able to do it.

    9MMare. Modern semi auto pistols, unless there is a mechanical fault or broken part, will not go off when dropped, thrown or anything else. The original Glock testing video by, if I remember right, the Georgia State Police showed the same Glock 17 with a primed case in the chamber thrown, run over, dropped from a helicopter, bounced off the concrete and everything else they could do to it and the weapon never discharged. Most/many striker fired handguns are designed in the same way. Keep your finger off the trigger and it won't go bang.
    Tacman605,

    While I agree with most of your positions I do take exception with this part simply because with guns like Glock and others that have a relatively light trigger and no external safety, the "finger" isn't the only thing that can press the trigger. I think it should be noted that any foreign object entering the trigger guard can (and has) caused the weapon to fire. So in fairness, just to say "...Keep your finger off the trigger and it won't go bang" leaves out some important handling requirements for these type weapons.

    I'm sure you can expound on that better than I can.
    Hopyard likes this.

  15. #119
    Senior Member Array Lish's Avatar
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    Reconsidering carrying one in the chamber....

    My gun has no thumb safety. There is one in the chamber at all times unless it's being cleaned. I take my responsibility as a parent VERY seriously. My gun is only EVER on my hip, in it's holster, or locked in the safe. My children have been taught if they see a gun - any gun - do not touch it. Hopefully that lesson will hold, but it is 100% MY responsibility they never get ahold of MY gun. I get so frustrated when I read of a child getting their hands on one and the parent not being charged. There was just a situation a couple days ago in my state where a teenager brought a gun from home on the bus and shot and killed a fellow student. They're charging the juvenile with manslaughter - fine. They said they do not anticipate any other charges at this time. That I have a problem with. I don't have a problem that the parent had the gun loaded or one in the chamber. I have a HUGE problem with somehow that firearm was accessible to a minor.

    In a self defense situation with tensions running high, I want one in the chamber, I want to pull it out of it's holster and have it ready to go bang. That's why I bought it. It's personal choice IMO whether or not to keep it chambered, thumb safety or off. For me, it's ready to go. I'm not going to pull it unless I need it. Just yesterday my mil was here and is considering getting a gun. So I pulled mine out turned away from everyone, gun pointed to the floor and unloaded it. She asked why I did that and why I had a bullet in my hand. Honey...we need to talk...and go to the range...

  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    Huh?? It would be almost impossible for a small child to work the slide and chamber a round into a 1911 (or other full size pistol). Thus the chances of a child-induced ND are dramatically reduced with an empty chamber.

    I can understand both sides of the OP's dilemma. With small kids around, I think he's doing the right thing with empty chamber. The small kids are around him ALL THE TIME, whereas a bona fide 'bad guy' may never show up in his life. If the OP has even one tiny memory lapse and leaves the pistol where a child can access it, then the chances of a ND are less with empty chamber. Of course, the trade off is that he's slightly slower getting the pistol into action against a 'bad guy'.
    It would be equally almost impossible for a small child to know how to release the safety and pull the trigger while engaging the grip safety.
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