Gun pointed at you... - Page 3

Gun pointed at you...

This is a discussion on Gun pointed at you... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Really - I think the point is that if you're still referring to it as a "ninja" move then you probably shouldn't attempt it. Otherwise, ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array Pickpocket's Avatar
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    Really -
    I think the point is that if you're still referring to it as a "ninja" move then you probably shouldn't attempt it.
    Otherwise, get training. A disarm is a valuable tool in the bag.

    Disarms are more about mindset than any other technique; it just isn't natural to defy a firearm that's 3 inches from your face. But like QK said, it doesn't take much.

    And for God's sake - quit calling it a ninja move.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    While reading through this thread, I've seen a few comments that concern me...

    Here's my take on the issue. There are basically two distances that we're going to encounter: Close, within arms reach or arms reach + 1 step, and anything farther than that.

    I feel that you more likely to encounter a close threat for a couple of reasons. First, the person is trying to intimidate and scare you. This means he's probably going to be in close proximity and point the gun right at your face or chest. Second, he doesn't want to broadcast what he's doing by standing 10 or 15 feet away and pointing the gun and shouting at you. By getting close, he's able to be more covert and minimize the chance that a passerby will recognize what's going on. So how do we handle a threat at close range? Simply stated, at close range, I'm going to take his gun away and beat him to death with it. There are a number of effective disarms that will allow you to gain control of the weapon without getting shot. Remember, action beats re-action. If you have practiced a good technique and execute it decisively and agressively, it will work (in other words, you need more than gun handling skills in your toolbox). I've spent a lot of time working gun disarms and am very confident in my ability to successfully execute one against an attacker at close range. As others have stated, the secret to a successful disarm is not the technique, it's the mindset. You have to believe that it will work and when you decide to go for it, go for it 100%. If you do it in a half-assed manner, it's not going to work.

    At the "anything farther than that" distance, I'm going to run like hell. I'm not going to throw my wallet, I'm just going to run. We all know that hitting a moving target is not easy, even for people who shoot on a regular basis. Chances are, the guy isn't going to hit you. In fact, he may not even fire because to do so would be to make a lot of noise and attract attention.
    One thing I'm definately not going to do is to try and outraw someone with a gun already pointed at me (this includes the "throw the wallet to distract him and draw"). That said, as I'm running like hell, I may very well draw my weapon but I'm not going to stand there and shoot it out. If there's cover nearby I may engage from cover, but unless there's a good reason for me to stick around (family members, etc.) I'm outa there. Playing the "throw the wallet" game is just going to piss him off. I don't know about y'all but I don't particulary want the guy any more agitated than he already is.

    If I absolutely had to engage right then and there, due to the nature of the situation (presence of family members, lack of an escape route, etc) and he wasn't close enough to go "hands-on," I'd go with explosive lateral movement as you draw and then shoot him to the ground.

    You'll notice that throughout my post I've used terms like 100%, Explosive, agressive, etc. The point I want to make is that when dealing with a violent encounter, you have to give it your all, halfway measures will not suffice. This is where we see the need for some real training and pre-planning. You don't have to have a fancy martial-arts pedigree or a bunch of certificates from a shooting-school. Just some serious consideration of what you will do and maybe a friend or two with whom to train some scenarios so you won't be caught flat-footed (well...anymore than you already will be if you're suddenly confronted by a gun wielding attacker)

    Quote Originally Posted by CDH
    This isn't a matter of "putting yourself in that situation", it's about "allowing" yourself to be put in that situation.
    And the way you allow it is by walking around with your head up your a**.
    To an extent I agree with you. If you are aware and alert, you should be able to see most threats before they become serious. However, this is not always the case. All of us are guilty of slipping out of condition-yellow at some point, and not all bad guys fit the "profile." I will agree with the endorsement for DeBeckers book (even thought he's an anti-gun weenie).

    Quote Originally Posted by CDH
    ...By the time you have a gun in your face, you've already screwed the pooch so give the guy your wallet and hope he let's you live.
    I don't agree with this statement at all. "Hope he lets you live?" Come on. The last thing I'm going to do is to place my hope or trust in someone that's already stuck a gun in my face. By complying with his demands, I'm giving him control of the situation. We need to do something to take control. Maybe this guy plans to shoot us anyway, maybe not. Either way, I'm not going to get executed, I'd rather go out fighting and take the SOB with me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pickpocket View Post
    Really -
    I think the point is that if you're still referring to it as a "ninja" move then you probably shouldn't attempt it.
    Otherwise, get training. A disarm is a valuable tool in the bag.

    Disarms are more about mindset than any other technique; it just isn't natural to defy a firearm that's 3 inches from your face. But like QK said, it doesn't take much.

    And for God's sake - quit calling it a ninja move.
    Thanks!
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankinNM View Post
    Actuallly there is a book reveiw at the back of this months issue of "Combat Handguns" that mentioned this. I'm at work and can't give propper credit, but I think the title of the book is something like "Guns and Wariors" and the quote is "If you quickly move out of the way while drawing the BG will miss 75% of the time."
    Guns & Warriors is John Farnam's latest book. I haven't read it but I've got his defensive handgun and rifle books and he's definitely a big proponent of movement off the line of attack, including every time you draw (whether the BG has a gun on you or not).

  4. #34
    Member Array crankinNM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Guns & Warriors is John Farnam's latest book. I haven't read it but I've got his defensive handgun and rifle books and he's definitely a big proponent of movement off the line of attack, including every time you draw (whether the BG has a gun on you or not).
    Thanks for the help,

    I went back and edited my post as well.

  5. #35
    Member Array crankinNM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    I don't agree with this statement at all. "Hope he lets you live?" Come on. The last thing I'm going to do is to place my hope or trust in someone that's already stuck a gun in my face. By complying with his demands, I'm giving him control of the situation. We need to do something to take control. Maybe this guy plans to shoot us anyway, maybe not. Either way, I'm not going to get executed, I'd rather go out fighting and take the SOB with me.


    Thanks!
    Enjoyed your whole take on the subject. The one thing that I could do more of us training. How do you keep sharp at disarming technique without taking self defence classes all the time........I guess I could practice with freinds, but most of my freinds are at work. They know that my past time is study of "combatcarry" and "packing". I guess I can hand them a training gun and ask if they mind if I disarm them.
    Spose I can practice disarming on the wife as well.

    Anyhows, I'm reading a book searies called "The Survivalist" by Jerry Arhern. I'm up to book 14. Almost done with it. I think your basic philosophy mirrors the main characters John Rourke. Never give up and surviving an "all in" matter, and don't take any tyranny from anyone.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankinNM View Post
    Enjoyed your whole take on the subject. The one thing that I could do more of us training. How do you keep sharp at disarming technique without taking self defence classes all the time........I guess I could practice with freinds, but most of my freinds are at work. They know that my past time is study of "combatcarry" and "packing". I guess I can hand them a training gun and ask if they mind if I disarm them.
    Spose I can practice disarming on the wife as well.

    Anyhows, I'm reading a book searies called "The Survivalist" by Jerry Arhern. I'm up to book 14. Almost done with it. I think your basic philosophy mirrors the main characters John Rourke. Never give up and surviving an "all in" matter, and don't take any tyranny from anyone.
    Thanks. As far as staying sharp on the disarms, I do teach and train several times a week. I realize not everyone can committ the money or the time to train that much. However, I feel that if you're serious about it, you'll find a way. Even if it's just you and a friend or two, get some training DVD's and drill the material with each other. Maybe I can get a photo sequence of a couple of basic disarms put up (just to throw out some ideas).
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    While thinking about this issue a little more over the last day or two, due to hearing a couple of stories about incidents similar to the one we're discussing, I decided that I needed to ammend my post a little.

    One thing I'm definately not going to do is to try and outraw someone with a gun already pointed at me (this includes the "throw the wallet to distract him and draw"). That said, as I'm running like hell, I may very well draw my weapon but I'm not going to stand there and shoot it out.
    The only exception that I would make to my previous statement would be for those of us that carry our gun in close proximity to where we carry our wallets. I personally carry my wallet in my right-rear pocket, and wear my gun IWB at 4:00 (right above the rear pocket). With this method, I can see where there would be times that you might be able to draw your pistol instead of your wallet. However, I would only do this if I had already made an definate decision shoot and I would shoot as soon as I could index my weapon. It's going to take the guy a split-second to process the new development of a gun in your hand instead of a wallet and by that time, you should already have a few rounds into him. The rules about explosive movement still apply.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    The only exception that I would make to my previous statement would be for those of us that carry our gun in close proximity to where we carry our wallets.
    It seems to me that you don't actually have to carry your gun near your wallet, you just have to carry it in a place where you could be carrying your wallet. I carry my wallet in my left front pocket, but my gun goes behind the right hip, but the BG probably doesn't know where my wallet is. Of course, he could have seen me with it out earlier (at the ATM, buying something, etc.) but even if he did, there's a good chance that he's not going to notice where I'm reaching if I seem to be complying.

  9. #39
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    However, I would only do this if I had already made an definate decision shoot and I would shoot as soon as I could index my weapon.
    IMO, I do not think it is a good idea to EVER draw untill after you "already made an definate decision to shoot"
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    It seems to me that you don't actually have to carry your gun near your wallet, you just have to carry it in a place where you could be carrying your wallet. I carry my wallet in my left front pocket, but my gun goes behind the right hip, but the BG probably doesn't know where my wallet is. Of course, he could have seen me with it out earlier (at the ATM, buying something, etc.) but even if he did, there's a good chance that he's not going to notice where I'm reaching if I seem to be complying.
    That's what I was getting at, thanks for articulating it a little better. As you said if you carry in a "non-standard" location (i.e. ankle-holster, belly-band, etc.), I probably wouldn't go for my gun because retrieving a gun from these places is not consistent with reaching for your wallet.

    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear
    IMO, I do not think it is a good idea to EVER draw untill after you "already made an definate decision to shoot"
    I would submit that there are a number of scenarios where you might draw with the intent of shooting if you have to, but might not have made the decision to fire as soon as you "clear leather," so to speak. For example, someone who has ignored your command to keep his distance and continues to walk toward you. At this point, you might draw and give one final command. Or, someone who might be some distance away, but armed with a knife or an impact weapon but who isn't yet actually attacking you. Or a group (two or more) who have not yet attacked but are still behaving in a manner that suggests that they might. In these situations, while you are willing to shoot, the final decision may not have been made yet.

    In the scenario I was describing, I'd be shooting as soon as I drew, to do otherwise would eliminate my element of surprise and allow the BG a chance to get me before I get him.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  11. #41
    New Member Array Pede's Avatar
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    Yes you should avoid this type of situation; however, since this is not the case, I would move quickly (if he was righthanded) to my right to any cover available causing the perp to have to cross his body with the weapon to get off a shot. While moving I would draw my weapon, access cover, and return fire with a vengence. I would not give in as it appears in today's world, you'd get shot anyway.

  12. #42
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    It seems that these days one VERY REAL "Rule Of Thumb" for the Bad Guys is to Leave No Witness Alive.

    That "Rule" sometimes even applies to petty crime.

    Since I have no portable crystal ball that enables me to determine (in advance) if the Perpetrator is Sub~Human...or not - my personal decision to always attempt a Disarm has been greatly influenced by the fact that in today's world Meek Compliance Is No Guarantee Of Survival.

    The world will NOT find me stiff in a puddle of my own blood with my firearm still holstered in leather.

    But, if you have not pre~trained to effect a workable Disarm then you might not want to attempt one.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    It seems that these days one VERY REAL "Rule Of Thumb" for the Bad Guys is to Leave No Witness Alive.

    That "Rule" sometimes even applies to petty crime.

    Since I have no portable crystal ball that enables me to determine (in advance) if the Perpetrator is Sub~Human...or not - my personal decision to always attempt a Disarm has been greatly influenced by the fact that in today's world Meek Compliance Is No Guarantee Of Survival.

    The world will NOT find me stiff in a puddle of my own blood with my firearm still holstered in leather.

    But, if you have not pre~trained to effect a workable Disarm then you might not want to attempt one.
    Well said
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

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