This is a discussion on OC vs exposing a CC?! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; When I was a kid, my best friend and I had a very angry man pull an AR-15 on us and force us into the ...
When I was a kid, my best friend and I had a very angry man pull an AR-15 on us and force us into the back of his pickup truck. He was angry because we had broken some bottles on the country road we were walking down, and he had punctured a tire. He and his buddy took us back to my friend's house, and by the time we got there, the rifle was hidden and the man was polite as could be to my friend's mom.
We ended up having to pay for the tire and clean up a five mile stretch of the road (at my friend's mother's angry insistence).
I told my brother about the gun, and he told my parents. They talked to my friend's mom, who thought what we did was worse than pulling an assault rifle on a couple of kids. My mom called the police, who sent out a deputy. He agreed, saying that he could have issued me a citation, and made no attempt to contact the man. My mom was incredulous, as am I thinking back on it years later. This was in rural Texas, so...
"Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty
"I've noticed that everyone that is pro-abortion has already been born." - Ronald Reagan
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson
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I have some clarification for you.
The carry method is brought up because the man grabbed his gun, then threatened force. The assumption is made that if the man was open carrying, the gun would not have been grabbed and the statement made would have stood on its own. The man was not arrested but was told he could have been arrested. The kids were detained but not charged.
According to the officer, if you are going to get your gun the conversation is over.
Any other words that come out of your mouth with a gun in hand should be commands to the BG. Directing them to leave at gun point.
Apparently (in TN) anyway if you are concealing a weapon and choose to make it known during a verbal altercation this could fall into the realm of criminal threatening. If you are legitimately.threatened you will be in a situation where you are forced to draw and fire. Anything less can be argued as a threat with intent to only Intimidate.
The opinion of the officer I spoke with is that the CC almost Hung himself with his own story. Had he not mentioned he placed his hand on the firearm the issue would not have been brought up.
He also agreed that the situation where you draw or start to draw and they scatter, is definitely better than getting you teeth kicker in by some punk and the Cc was well within his rights to defend himself.
Apparently it all comes down to what the responding officer believes and how you word you statement.
Our legal system is broken.... very broken.
If ..... they see an open carry gun on my hip, and decide it's not a good idea to get into a confrontation or attempt to beat me up....... I have not done anything nor made any threats, it was only the appearance of the gun on my hip.
However, if I purposely expose a concealed gun, in order to initimidate them to back off and not get into a confrontation, then "I" introduced a gun in order to intimidate them........ to not continue in their actions.
that's the difference. One, requires NO action on your part, the OTHER ..... required YOU to introduce the gun into the equation when it wasn't visible and to use it as a threat.
He told you correctly.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
I'm not sure why he needed to pull a gun in the first place. He was afraid of death or grave bodily injury, and could not escape the immediate area and call the police/911?
"The teens began approaching the man talking amongst themselves about beating him up."
I still don't understand why he was in the wrong to "show" that he had a gun when he had a clear threat made against him. If he feared for his safety/life, wouldn't "showing" his gun be appropriate??
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Getting arrested is like being sued.
Anyone can sue you for any reason. It doesn't mean that their suit has any merit or that they will win.
Cops can arrest you if they think you broke a law. It doesn't mean that you did or that they can convict you of it.
As far as I can tell, it depends on the cop. Some will cite/arrest people and let the DA and the courts figure it out. Others cops use more discretion for who to cite/arrest. Unfortunately, our legal system sees officer discretion as being unfair (allowing for lawsuits), so it encourages the cops to not think.
I don't understand why you'd want to open carry unless you were hunting and carrying a revolver .I am just not comfortable giving up that element of suprise.]
If you're doing it just to excersising you rights. I know where I live you would get a visit from local Leo.
This is from VA law.§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
These types of laws as written, at least to me; leave much latitude for LE, attorneys and prosecutors.
Interesting to note some states don't adopt similar language.
As someone already posted..The system is broke.
"When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan
Do what you can; then do what you must
This was a good set of discussions/replies. Doc had the best reply as a general answer to a general methodology. The presumption of imminent threat is still the precursor to presenting your firearm with the distinct reason to use same to defend yourself. I have never seen a case where imminent threat has anything to do with property, unless the property is within your house and we are now talking Castle Doctrine, wherein the forcible entry into the house for the purposes of stealing or vandalizing is a legal presumption of imminent threat--at least in most states. Whether a detached garage on your property constitutes Castle Doctrine when you are not in the garage at the time---ya got me on that.
Thank you guys for the responses. I think I understand the Issue however I still feel the cc was within hid right as he was legitimately threatened.
Thank you for the explanations.
I agree that what the home owner did seems from the way the story was presented was reasonable.
Some youths were trespassing causing trouble in his property which if they got injured in he would be responsible for. He was CC'ing as legal for him to do. He told the youths to leave, which was his right to do. At this point I bet he thought they would simply comply and leave.
Then the youths threatened him and started to approach him. At this point he places his hand on his gun in order to be prepared to draw and defend himself from the threat that they have conveyed.
What he needed to do was make sure the responding officer understood that the reason he reached for his gun was the fact that he was outnumbered and they had indicated they were going to attack him, placing him in danger and fear of harm or death.
In Michigan the brandishing law states that even displaying a your weapon with the intent to intimidate is illegal, however in this case he was responding to a real and viable threat and I think he should have been OK in his actions, unfortunately the cops did not agree.
What also ticks me off is that the parents would rather think that their "little angels" would never trespass, steal or threaten anyone than believe a guy that has no reason to make up a story about what happened. More than likely they are in for a rude awakening soon when the police catch the angels red handed with stolen merchandise.
ANYTIME you expose, pull, show, grab your gun in a situation to protect yourself (as in your example) call the police as soon as possible! Much better to explain yourself to defend yourself.