OC vs exposing a CC?!

This is a discussion on OC vs exposing a CC?! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am new to carry however I need some clarification on this issue. TN is an open or CC state with permit. I was speaking ...

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Thread: OC vs exposing a CC?!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array daffyduc's Avatar
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    OC vs exposing a CC?!

    I am new to carry however I need some clarification on this issue. TN is an open or CC state with permit.
    I was speaking to a neighbor who is a LEO that supports CC rights. He was telling me about a man who approached some teens smashing property in an open detached garage at his home. The man was carrying iwb. The man yelled from afar to stop and get out of here. The teens began approaching the man talking amongst themselves about beating him up. The man moved his jacket back to reach for his gun. Placed his hand on the grip and said something along the lines of "you need to get the ........ out of here". The teens seeing the gun scattered. The man called the police and asked for an officer to come out. Apparently a parent of one of the teens called police as well after hearing a very different story. when the cops came a neighbor had heard the whole thing and verified the man's story.

    The CC was arrested for threatening the teens with a gun.

    After some discussion with my LEO neighbor he advised that had the man been open carrying that would not have been the case. The problem is he exposed a gun he was concealing in order to threaten. If the gun was clearly visible it would have been no different than if the gun was not present.

    I am having some trouble understanding why that makes any difference. If 3 capable teens are coming towards you telling you they intend to cause bodily harm, why is it an issue to prepare to use force?

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array Edward7's Avatar
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    I would argue that I wasn't threatening anyone, i wanted my hand on the gun and my jacket happened to move and exposed my weapon. And doesn't it matter that the kids threatened him first?

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    Member Array Billb1960's Avatar
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    either we're not getting the whole story or the cops made a mistake. This doesn't sound right.

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    Senior Member Array DocT65's Avatar
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    Procedure:

    1. CC placed in adverse situation potentially requiring self defense.
    2. Situation escalates.
    3. CC evaluates for means of safely leaving the situation ("get away").
    4. Situation now unescapable and CC has reasonable "fear for his/her life".
    5. CC now draws weapon and fires in defense of his life in light of an immediate and viable threat.
    6. CC then relates to LEO: "Officer, I was in fear for my life."

    Any situation other than this, leave the weapon in the holster (unless you are a LEO). No reason to draw the weapon on an individual if you are not prepared to immediately and justifiably utilize deadly force. To do otherwise is asking for trouble. In most jurisdictions, deadly force is not justifiable in defense of property. Leave that situation to the police. This is probably why the CC was so charged.

    If the CC's life was in fact threated, he/she should secure his witness and tell the story to the judge.
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    Story is suspect. The method of carry is not threatening, the actions of the individual are.
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    Member Array iguanadon's Avatar
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    Besides, this is on HIS property. Story doesn't sound complete.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Smells like Tuna.
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    Member Array JasonJ's Avatar
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    Well, in MI, as far as I remember and could research.. he would have been in the right to draw his weapon, and IF he felt he was in danger of great bodily harm or his property was being stolen in the midst of a felony, such as home invasion (which this would be if he was home and the kids came into his dwelling/building) then he could also fire in fear of his life and to protect property.

    In this case, presenting the weapon, and im not sure i read that he even drew the firearm.. just exposed it and took hold if the grip, would not be a crime in any sense...

    Theres either more to the story, or TN is whackjob crazy.

    Heres a 3 yr old story of a similar situation that went the wrong way...
    When Can You Use Deadly Force to Protect Your Life or Property?

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    Senior Member Array daffyduc's Avatar
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    I can only relay the story as it was told to me. It is entirely possible that something got lost in translation.

    That being said I believe the CC did the right thing here. He used as much force as was needed to end the threat. In this case that force was presenting a weapon.

    Doct65 hit on the question I was driving at... if you get to step 4.5 and the threat ends why is that a crime?

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    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    OC vs exposing a CC?!

    I agree that either there is more to this story or the police messed up. I also find it less plausible that they would side with the teens, as they had to have admittedly been in the guys residence (interpreting garage as being part of residence, even detached).

    From the standpoint of AOJ, we have 3 on 1 disparity of force (A), verbal threats (J), and most would at least be in the process of getting within physical striking distance (O).

    As presented, the home owner should not have been arrested. Perhaps they made a mistake of saying something that implied brandishing, rather than I felt sufficiently threatened by multiple assailants saying they were going to ... and I prepared to defend myself.

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    Senior Member Array daffyduc's Avatar
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    Incident that happened on 8/25/08 need advice/help - AR15.Com Archive

    A quick Google search for criminal threatening brought up multiple threads. The one above is similar.

    Thanks for all the replies I appreciate the assistance with this as I want to make sure I fully understand the issue.

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    Ex Member Array dbglock's Avatar
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    My CC instructor told the class, "Any time you draw your weapon prepare to be arrested." Remember, I get tired of saying this but people seem to overlook it: it doesn't make any difference in the world what happened. What matters is what a jury (or the cops as far as arrest goes) believes happened. OJ can tell you all about that, at least from the perspective of his '95 trial.

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    Member Array Billb1960's Avatar
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    One of the best pieces of advice I got from the instructor of my CHL class was that once a weapon is involved it's a race to call 911. As soon as you feel safe call 911 and ask for a officer to respond. Do not let the bad guys call first because they'll make you out to be the bad guy in a hurry. When the police arrive you identify yourself, identify the bad guys if you can, point out any witnesses and tell them you're willing to sign a complaint, then you shut your mouth and call your lawyer. You may still end up making a trip to the station house but you've done everything you can to get in front.

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    Member Array RiverCity.45's Avatar
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    OC vs exposing a CC?!

    What caught my attention is an apparent long gap between the incident and the police calling. The mother called after hearing a different story? That means the kids had time to get home or to call mommy. No mention of the CC guy calling until after that. Pretending this story is true, CC guy should have been on the phone to 911 when he saw the kids messing with his property.
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    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iguanadon View Post
    Besides, this is on HIS property. Story doesn't sound complete.
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