The 4th Estate Gets it Wrong..Again

The 4th Estate Gets it Wrong..Again

This is a discussion on The 4th Estate Gets it Wrong..Again within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The original article Oregon mall shooter used stolen rifle; Wash. bill would change self-defense law - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com ..and a quote from ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 26
Like Tree26Likes

Thread: The 4th Estate Gets it Wrong..Again

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,353

    The 4th Estate Gets it Wrong..Again

    The original article
    Oregon mall shooter used stolen rifle; Wash. bill would change self-defense law - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com

    ..and a quote from the article

    the AR-15 does not use “high powered” ammunition, but a cartridge commonly used to shoot prairie dogs.

    Really? Prairie dogs? Hmm?

    A .223 projectile with a velocity of approx 3,200 fps capable of killing a human at 300+ yards.

    This just boggles the imagination.
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must


  2. #2
    Moderator
    Array gasmitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    10,619
    I think I'd rather have them err in that direction (prairie dogs) than saying it's an elephant gun.

    Actually, considering the usual diatribe about "assault weapons" with implied inferences about machine guns, this article was very favorable as the LEO was quoted as describing the gun simply as an AR-15:

    To his credit during a press conference Wednesday morning, Clackamas County Sheriff’s Sgt. Adam Phillips told a reporter that his agency had not referred to the gun as an “assault” rifle. He properly identified the rifle as an AR-15 semiautomatic, a fact he repeated so reporters would hopefully get it right. As this column noted earlier, the AR-15 does not use “high powered” ammunition, but a cartridge commonly used to shoot prairie dogs.


    And before you go too far down the pike with what's capable of killing a human at 300 yards, a lowly .22 Long Rifle round is capable of that.
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    2,543
    Yes, prairie dogs. It's a varmint cartridge. If you want to kill a man, there are much better calibers available.

    I'm not saying I'd volunteer to get shot with a .223 - I have an AR-15 and would use it for home defense if the need arose - but it is not impressive that it is lethal at 300 yards either. "Lethal" is a relative term - it's subjective in this context. I think that if a person was shot at 300 yards with a .223 Remington, they would have well over a 50% change of surviving. I'm just making this up - but it's to illustrate my point.

    Also - if I wanted to kill prairie dogs, an accurate semi-automatic rifle with a relatively high magazine capacity makes sense.

    To me, the article sounds like the Sheriff was trying to keep to the facts and not blow things out of proportion.

    Austin
    OD*, msgt/ret and gasmitty like this.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,944
    High powered compared to a cap gun? Yes. High powered compared to most other rifle cartridges? No, not by a long shot. I think the Sheriff Sgt. has a better perspective on what was used as opposed to how it's usually reported.
    OD*, gasmitty, bmcgilvray and 1 others like this.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

    Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.

  5. #5
    Moderator
    Array bmcgilvray's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    10,098
    Here's another vote for considering the .223 as a nice middling varmint round. It's about midway to the top of the .22 center fire cartridge line-up.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society

    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,353
    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Here's another vote for considering the .223 as a nice middling varmint round. It's about midway to the top of the .22 center fire cartridge line-up.
    Really? Where do I purchase .22 cal with 3200 fps muzzle velocity?
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

  7. #7
    Member Array carracer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Nampa, Id.
    Posts
    403
    It was not the Sheriff that reported "the AR-15 does not use “high powered” ammunition, but a cartridge commonly used to shoot prairie dogs." but the writer of the article

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    27,083
    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Really? Where do I purchase .22 cal with 3200 fps muzzle velocity?
    From the Rifle Recoil Table @ ChuckHawks.com, listing FPS (grains @ fps) ...


    .22 LR (40 at 1165)
    .22 WMR (40 at 1910)
    .22 Hornet (45 at 2800)
    .22 PPC (52 at 3300)
    .221 Fireball (50 at 3000)
    .222 Rem. (50 at 3200)
    .223 Rem. (45 at 3500)
    .223 Rem. (55 at 3200)
    .223 Rem. (62 at 3025)
    .225 Win. (55 at 3700)
    .224 Wby. Mag. (55 at 3700)
    .22-250 Rem. (55 at 3600)
    .22-250 Rem. (60 at 3500)
    .220 Swift (50 at 3900)
    .220 Swift (55 at 3800)
    .223 WSSM (55 at 3850)


    ... assuming the .22 reference meant any of the .22x centerfire rifle rounds.
    mprp likes this.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    2,543
    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Really? Where do I purchase .22 cal with 3200 fps muzzle velocity?
    Walmart. It's called .223 Remington.... I feel like we're talking in circles here. .223 Remington is .22 caliber - that little 3/1000ths on the end isn't enough to bump it up to 6mm - which is still a small caliber.

    Austin

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    charleston, SC
    Posts
    1,879
    We are talking the media and newspapers who, many years ago, particularly after Watergate, traded any responsibility for being a true and independent watchdog on the government to doing what it takes to suck on the right teat regardless of right or wrong.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Ksgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    4,018
    I would think you could ask some North Vietnamese, Afgans, or Iraqies what the 223/5.56 ammo is capable of..

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    757
    From a hunting perspective the .223 is a true varmint/small predator cartridge.

    It's the low end of whitetail hunting rounds. Lethal, yes. Ideal, not really.

    Let's face it, it's not just speed that matters. Weight and diameter, and powder load also matter. Let's face it, when you compare the 7mm08 and the 7mm Rem Mag rounds, both the same diameter the 7mm RM has far more power. Both are still effective killing rounds for North American game. Let's face it though, the .22 LR historically been the favored round for deer poachers in the US for generations because it CAN kill. Not because it is an ideal round.

    The comment about the .223 being a varmint round, to me, was spot on. I've always been a hunter first, and then SD shooter. It's a good reference.
    aus71383 likes this.

  13. #13
    OD*
    OD* is online now
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,286
    Quote Originally Posted by aus71383 View Post
    Yes, prairie dogs. It's a varmint cartridge. If you want to kill a man, there are much better calibers available.

    I'm not saying I'd volunteer to get shot with a .223 - I have an AR-15 and would use it for home defense if the need arose - but it is not impressive that it is lethal at 300 yards either. "Lethal" is a relative term - it's subjective in this context. I think that if a person was shot at 300 yards with a .223 Remington, they would have well over a 50% change of surviving. I'm just making this up - but it's to illustrate my point.

    Also - if I wanted to kill prairie dogs, an accurate semi-automatic rifle with a relatively high magazine capacity makes sense.

    To me, the article sounds like the Sheriff was trying to keep to the facts and not blow things out of proportion.

    Austin
    Bingo.

    Fortunately, I consider "bad guys" varmints.
    rmxer85 and pfries like this.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  14. #14
    Member Array Obiwan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    251
    According to my 1968 Guidebook for Marines, the muzzle vel of a 5.56 in the M16 was 3250fps. In the m-4 it has to be less - shorter barrel.

    Fun to shoot, but I preferred my M-14. (grin)
    When seconds count, help is minutes away!

  15. #15
    Member Array Hedimitrius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Red Bud, IL
    Posts
    47
    Maybe if you were shooting prairie dogs wearing 1/4" thick plate armor. I was taught in the military that it was the best round for "hardened" combat (shooting through barriers).

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •