Don't knock the small guns; they will kill you dead

This is a discussion on Don't knock the small guns; they will kill you dead within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here are a few excerpts from an annual fbi report of slain officers and how they went down. These had the small guns.. God Bless ...

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Thread: Don't knock the small guns; they will kill you dead

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    Member Array ppcpilot's Avatar
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    Don't knock the small guns; they will kill you dead

    Here are a few excerpts from an annual fbi report of slain officers and how they went down. These had the small guns.. God Bless our Officers!


    A 35-year-old conservation enforcement officer with the Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources was fatally wounded during a drug investigation about 7:15 p.m. on March 8 in Winfield. The 16-year veteran of law enforcement was working on a local drug task force that was attempting to execute a search warrant at the residence of a suspected drug dealer. Once at the home, officers knocked on the front door and announced their intent to execute the warrant. With no reply from inside, the officers tried to forcibly enter the residence. After numerous unsuccessful attempts, officers finally knocked down the door. When the conservation officer entered the residence, the suspect fired one shot from a .380-caliber semiautomatic handgun that struck the officer below the waist, just beneath his body armor. The victim officer yelled to the other officers that he had been shot, and the officers took cover outside the residence. The victim officer was able to pull himself back onto the porch where fellow officers were able to retrieve him and take him from the scene by police vehicle to a local hospital. The alleged shooter retreated to the back of the house. Law enforcement officers convinced the 42-year-old man to surrender a short time later. The man, who was a known drug user and dealer, had prior arrests on charges of First-Degree Rape and Lewd Molestation. He was arrested and charged with Possession of a Controlled Substance/Distribution of a Controlled Substance and Attempted Murder. On March 25, the conservation enforcement officer died of his injuries and the Attempted Murder charge against the offender was changed to Capital Murder.

    A veteran police officer, aged 31, with the Birmingham Police Department was slain in a robbery attempt of a fast-food restaurant at 8:40 p.m. on November 18. The officer, who was off duty and in plain clothes at the time, had entered the establishment, placed an order, and sat at a table. Just after an acquaintance of the officer entered the business and sat at the officer's table, a man entered the restaurant brandishing a .25-caliber automatic handgun. He ordered patrons and employees to the floor. The officer's friend was apparently too slow to follow the robber's orders, and the robber shot the individual. Calling himself to duty, the officer, with nearly 10 years of law enforcement experience, drew his 9 mm semi-automatic handgun and engaged the robber in a gunfight in which several shots were exchanged. The suspect tried to leave the business through a back door, but it was locked. The individual then retraced his steps and ran out the front door of the business with the officer in pursuit. After a short footchase, the officer collapsed at the corner of the restaurant. The victim officer, who had been shot five times in the right shoulder, the right hand, the right thigh, and fatally in the chest, was pronounced dead at the scene. The assailant remains at large at time of publication.

    On November 30 at 10:30 a.m., a 42-year-old deputy sheriff with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department was fatally wounded after responding to a disturbance call in Artesia. The nearly 19-year veteran to law enforcement was among patrol units and an air unit that responded to numerous calls of two street gang members in the area of a rival street gang. Gunshots were also reported being fired. Members of the air unit spotted the two suspects; one suspect hid in a backyard and the other forced his way into a nearby residence. The deputies learned that inside the house there were two women who were afraid to leave. Fearing a hostage situation, they went to the residence and ordered the suspect to come out, but he refused. With the house surrounded by law enforcement personnel, a group of deputies attempted to kick in the front door. The suspect fired four shots from a .380-caliber semiautomatic pistol. One shot entered through the armhole of the victim officer's protective vest and struck him in the chest. The victim officer attempted to draw his weapon as another deputy fired one round from his shotgun through the front door. The round struck the suspect in the right side and back. The 21-year-old suspect, who was on probation and under the influence of a controlled substance at the time of the incident, then shot himself in the head and died at the scene. The victim officer was transported to a local hospital where he died the same day. Officials later discovered that the occupants of the home had managed to escape before the deputies arrived.

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  3. #2
    Member Array AZ Dog's Avatar
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    Maybe.

    I see what you're trying to say but...in all three of the examples that you provide, the officers died much later; they were not immediately stopped. They remained conscious and capable of fighting back/returning fire for quite some time. Also, all three examples were LEO's who are normally logical, rational human beings. A hardened criminal or someone jacked up on drugs will not back off so easily and while he may die later, until that time he may be fully capable of inflicting severe bodily injury or death upon you.

    For the record: I have and carry a Keltec P32 for those times when I can't carry anything else. And...there is a good reason why I can't carry anything else sometimes. At all other times, I carry my 4" XD-40. I sure feel a whole lot better with the XD on my side than the P32.

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    Member Array amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Dog View Post
    they were not immediately stopped.



    A hardened criminal or someone jacked up on drugs will not back off so easily and while he may die later, until that time he may be fully capable of inflicting severe bodily injury or death upon you.
    For a sure thing 100% stop, then carry a 12ga loaded with 000 buckshot and/or slug.

    The original point is never underestimate the "mouse gun". If you do, it will most likely kill you.
    ""If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, I either won't need more or, more won't help me.""

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    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
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    hand gun shots rarely result in immedate death.
    Unless you hit a vital organ the victim is usually in for a long slow death unless medical help arrives.
    It doesn't matter what caliber.

    AFS
    Gun control is hitting what you aim at

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    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    Fall dead on the spot or 4 days later your still dead.

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    Give Me A Choice...

    of being shot with a .45 or a .380...

    Not a choice I want to make...both hurt (eventually)...both kill (fast or slow)...
    I feel just as comfortable with my .380 if I take it along, as with my .45!
    Both are crime stoppers, both make...some...BG's stop and wonder...somebody on drugs might walk right through a .380 or a .45!
    I know the arguments about stopping power...blah, blah, blah...
    It's just a matter of convenience, for me, on which weapon I may carry...
    At least I'm armed!

    Stay safe!

    ret
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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    Member Array AZ Dog's Avatar
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    It seems that most of the above posts address my reply so I just want to expand on my post a little bit. When defending ourselves, whether it's with a 12 ga. shotgun or a stick, we're not concerned about whether or not the BG dies, whether it's now or 2 weeks later. We're concerned with stopping the BG during the attack.

    There are real life incidents of someone being struck by a .22 and dying pretty quickly. There are other cases of someone being struck by a .357 mag in the head and still being fully capable of fighting. (This one comes from a video that was shown to us during our CCW course. Two cops, one BG. A struggle ensues, officer shoots BG, skull deflects bullet, bullet travels to back of head under scalp.) IIRC it was after this that he was able to kill one of the officers. Does this prove that we're better off with a .22 than a .357? Of course not. You can almost always find extreme examples on either end of the spectrum, no matter what the subject.

    Handguns are not 100% effective fight stoppers. So to me that illustrates the need to give ourselves every advantage possible. Maybe that means a .45 if you can shoot it well. If the largest gun you can shoot well is a .380, then that is what provides you the best advantage possible. Fights have been won and lost with .32's, and fights have been won and lost with .45's. But, I think it's hard to make a case that given the same shot placement, a .45 is not going to cause a whole lot more damage than a .32. Just like if all I had were two sticks, one small and one large, I would choose the large stick. However, if a small stick were the only thing available, then I'd use that.

    Clint Smith has a good article in the current issue of American Handgunner where he talks about aiming small. In IDPA for example, we shoot for COM and are penalized for shots outside of that. In an actual gun fight however, we may not be presented with a COM shot. We may have to settle for a foot, ankle, or shoulder if that is our only opportunity due to the BG being behind cover. A foot, ankle, or shoulder shot is NOT going to kill immediately. A good foot or ankle shot with a healthy caliber however is going to break bone and immobilize the BG. In that case, the larger the round, the more damage that will be done.

    Another good target is the pelvic area. Break the pelvic bone and the BG will be immobilized. I would think it highly unlikely that a .32 will do that. A .40 or .45 will not do it 100% of the time but the chances are considerably higher.

    My collection ranges from a .177 Crosman air pistol to a 12 gauge shotgun. I don't want to be shot with either of those or anything in between. But...I'm a reasonable, logical, thinking human being that's comfortable in my den right now with very few worries. If we're ever forced to use a weapon in self-defense, the BG will most likely not be a reasonable, logical, thinking human being with few worries.

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    Member Array ppcpilot's Avatar
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    My point was that don't think because you are initially outgunning your adversary ("that's not a knife, this is a knife!") that the one little pop from his Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, etc..you happen to take in process of a gunfight will just 'sting' a little. I'm not trying to justify small guns, but those little guns at close ranges we are likley to face in real life are very very dangerous, and a threat with one should not be taken lightly.

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    erh
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    'Ever seen someone take hours to die from a 7.62 long gun round... It happen's fairly often...

    Thankfully; "I don't anymore; probably never will again..."

    I still carry my 380 Seecamp everywhere now, whether or not I have anything else.

    E!
    Eric Howland
    Savannah, GA.

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    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppcpilot View Post
    My point was that don't think because you are initially outgunning your adversary ("that's not a knife, this is a knife!") that the one little pop from his Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, etc..you happen to take in process of a gunfight will just 'sting' a little. I'm not trying to justify small guns, but those little guns at close ranges we are likley to face in real life are very very dangerous, and a threat with one should not be taken lightly.
    Has anyone here given you the impression that they thought a little gun would only sting? I don't think anyone has discounted the fact that they are still considered lethal force and are dangerous.

    Instead, what I have seen is the opposite, good guys believng/hoping that a tiny gun is going to be enough firepower to establish superiority in a fight, hence carrying them to victory. The question is, do the bad guys know the little guns could kills them just as dead (as if you could kill somebody alive)?

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Dog View Post
    Another good target is the pelvic area. Break the pelvic bone and the BG will be immobilized. I would think it highly unlikely that a .32 will do that. A .40 or .45 will not do it 100% of the time but the chances are considerably higher.
    We had an informal survey (here I believe) with EMS/LE, and no one could recall seeing/running/hearing second hand about the pelvic-stop. The one argument for a gut-shot is that, with good expanding ammo, it will hurt like HELL......but maybe not for awhile. A shot right into the neck of the hip could take someone down, but the target is the same as a brain-stem shot, not exactly easy, in the heat of the moment. When we talk about pelvic fxs, I think the concensus is that's more the province of the rifle or shotty, which have the mass and velocity necessary. Not trying to roast you, but this has been posited frequently (by myself, on occassion ), and some careful thought really brings it into question.

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    Hey, AZ Dog,

    I hear what you're saying and I'm with you all the way. Anything can kill, that's true. But SD is not about kill, it's about stop ASAP. No pistol round is considered to be a sure stop etc., but if the larger more powerful handgun rounds are iffy stoppers, why would one want to trust something even less effective?????

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    Cool Interesting Addition

    Word from a detective friend of mine was that the little .22 rim fire NAA (North American Arms) Mini...was the drug dealer dispute resolution revolver of choice.
    The criminal head bangers would hide the little revolver from being discovered in a "pre search out" (sometimes even in their a$$ Crack) and then "palm it" to quickly pop the other rival dope dealer in what little brains he had up there...for instant payback retribution.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    Member Array AZ Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppcpilot View Post
    My point was that don't think because you are initially outgunning your adversary ("that's not a knife, this is a knife!") that the one little pop from his Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, etc..you happen to take in process of a gunfight will just 'sting' a little. I'm not trying to justify small guns, but those little guns at close ranges we are likley to face in real life are very very dangerous, and a threat with one should not be taken lightly.
    That makes sense to me. I understand the point you are trying to make. The only time I'm afraid of guns is when looking down the wrong end. While I would never consider a .25 for a SD gun, I will consider any gun, regardless of size, a deadly threat if pointed towards me.

    And we would be remiss without mentioning that if you are ever involved in a gunfight and take a hit or two, with any caliber, don't give up! Keep fighting until you either win or can't fight any more.

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