Fictitious Scenario - Want to Play Along?
This is a discussion on Fictitious Scenario - Want to Play Along? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; IMHO... NO talk, NO HTH or deflecting with baggage.
Move family back if possible, but the odds are that they will not be aware of ...
October 13th, 2006 02:28 PM
IMHO... NO talk, NO HTH or deflecting with baggage.
Move family back if possible, but the odds are that they will not be aware of the situation until the last moment and will be in a state of panic along with the rest of the cast and crew of this movie.
If you figure tha the BG is 15 feet away when the S goes down...
Stab #1 step Stab #2 step step. He could at this point be 6 or 8 feet away. Not to long to react. You might even find that you would be required to shoot from the hip in this case if he is closing at a faster pace. BG's on dope act erractically.
If you come at me or my family with any type of weapon in a threating mannor you are toast... end of story. If he yells "AIDS" and has the needle... that is definitly his a$$.
Background here would be a major concern obviously. Large slow moving hollow points and good shot placement. Yell for the passengers to get down if possible and then take him out. 2 taps center mass.
This would be a good training scenario. Close quarter crowded confusing conditions.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!
-- Theodore Roosevelt --
October 13th, 2006 03:38 PM
I'm with Rob72. I truly feel that at the point a needle is produced and threats are made lethal and immediate force is the only sane option. After a decade of H2H training in multiple styles (including knife fighting), I would strongly suggest NOT trying to go H2h with a needle or knife wielding person ESPECIALLY if they appear drugged or crazed. Have you ever seen anyone pumped up on PCP? Don't even think about jumping in on that one. Do what you can to minimize hitting bystanders but by all means use the best weapon you have available (one that can bite from a distance ie a gun). If he/she is dumb enough to turn their back to you ...Fine, I'll agree a knife may be a better option, but only if you are skilled in its use and can take control of and incapacitate the attacker IMMEDIATELY. I hate to sound cold, but in any of those type of scenarios my life and my family's lives are my first priority, everything else is secondary, that's not to say I won't try to avoid the danger of hitting someone else if I can without jeopardizing mine or my family's safety first.
October 13th, 2006 08:10 PM
Bad situation, I'm staying out of it if I can.
If we are on a bus, train, or monorail type conveyance where I can't get off, I'm grabbing the little one and pushing the wife as we run to to get away from this idiot. Once they are removed from direct threat, only if I can get behind him and suprise him with a choke hold and get control of the arm with the needle will I engage. Otherwise, I'm playing sheeple on this one.
I'm not taking a chance of getting stuck. I'm not going to willingly take him on H2H because I dont' want his blood on me & I'm not shooting him because I don't want to spray his blood all over everyone else.(realistically, I'm not packing anyway because if I'm going to Disney or where ever, I have to go through metal detectors and have my bags searched by rent-a-cops at the gate)
I take care of me & mine 1st, everyone else can take care of theirs. I'm only a hero for the sake of my 2 at this point. Keeping them safe is priority 1 and keeping me safe is priority 2.
Like has been mentioned by others, only If backed into a corner where I have absolutly no choice but to engage, the backpack is a weapon (especially if my wife packed it) and I would use it to fend off the needle and move in and quickly get behind him and take him down from the behind, (I learned how to efectively do this as a wrestler in HS when a guy 1/2 my size wore me out one day by doing it to me, since then it's been one of my favorites) controlling the needle arm as a first priority and cutting of blood and oxygen to the brain quickly with a choke, until uconscious or until he expires.
Last edited by sgtD; October 13th, 2006 at 08:16 PM.
When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.
October 13th, 2006 09:27 PM
And to think this is a perfect time for the batons I can't carry....
October 13th, 2006 09:55 PM
In the first situation,l I would warn the other passengers loudly that he had a needle and what he was doing, to get them away. Then depending on what happened if he is truely just a crackhead or whatever, would do my best in one shot (with fist) to cold cock him and put the lights out, hopefully the other passengers would either get out of the way or assist after shouting out and letting them know what was going on.
For those of you that would just start out with doing the old double tap thing, what happens when someone else on the tram isn't paying as much attention to what is going on and just sees you shoot this guy, and pull their weapon and tries a double tap on you. In a crowded area like this, you definately got to let people know what is going on first, or you might just have all hell break loose and lots of people get hurt, or dead.
In the second situation where the other passengers know something is not right, hopefully the everyone will position themselves away from the guy and hopefully the next stop is soon. If it isn't and he is in pursuit of your family or the other passengers, you sure better make sure noone else is going to step in front of you going towards the guy while you taking your shot if that is what it comes down to.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
October 13th, 2006 10:15 PM
Certainly wouldn't start with that. But, being disabled means I am simply unable to resort to any fanciful "ninja moves" to stop an attacker; nor does dial-a-prayer work any better for me than anyone else. With someone aggressively attacking with a weapon, who is ignoring demands to stop and drop that weapon, who continues to approach when offered the option to be stopped or face the alternative ... that person believes he can surmount the defense and get to my family. If such a person negotiated an array of others, stairs and that narrow aisle between the seats (in my local light-rail cars), ignoring demands to stop and drop the weapon, he is going to be stopped.
Originally Posted by farronwolf
Now, I'll grant that the risk of instant lethality of a needle is pretty darned low. However, this is 2006. There is a tremendous, well-documented likelihood that such a needle contains any number of deadly microorganisms in the blood. Such a person commiting such an act knows this, acts despite this, and cannot possibly be surprised by someone refusing to be subjected to this direct deadly threat.
Last edited by ccw9mm; October 14th, 2006 at 06:07 AM.
Reason: readin', writin' and spellin'
October 14th, 2006 01:53 AM
Several years ago, there was a dirtbag robbing grocery stores in Maryville, using as a weapon, a syringe that he would announce as containing AIDS infected blood. When the robberies started working toward our county, we were told at rollcall that the D.A. had advised the Sheriff that under TN law, this was definitely to be considered deadly force.
Similar situation... one could reasonably see a syringe as a deadly threat, with AIDS, terrorism, etc. Beyond that, I think the situation would determine whether you were able to safely fire your weapon or not. Crowded train, subway or whatever, I would hold off firing unless I could get a contact shot. I would hate to let the dirtbag get that close, but I would have to intervene to prevent further injury to others... hard to say. Best case for me would be to try to get behind him and choke him into unconsciousness while controlling the arm holding the needle.
When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle
October 14th, 2006 01:26 PM
So after you shoot the slime do you render aid? I mean blood born pathogen is a blood born pathogen wether it is his needle or your bullet.
October 14th, 2006 01:32 PM
I'd call for aid, sure, as part of the general response. Police, paramedic if he's down. He wants a fighting chance? In a few minutes, he'll get that opportunity.
Originally Posted by crankinNM
Exactly. Wouldn't touch him. Would stay at distance behind cover and await the cavalry.
I mean blood born pathogen is a blood born pathogen wether it is his needle or your bullet.
January 26th, 2007 11:54 PM
This is a deadly threat - you can wait until it is your turn to get stabbed with AIDS or Hep, or act NOW before he potentially kills everyone in the car except your family, although your timimg would have to be darn good - you really don't know who's next. Insane, diseased, or just strung out, 1 or 2 victums is already too many - drop his sorry self like the rabid dog that he is.
January 27th, 2007 04:06 AM
Very tough $ituation. I would have to con$ider that my family will probably not notice the BG until it i$ too late to move to $afety. Getting in close to the BG will probably be not only the be$t, but probably the only option in that tight of $pace. Hand to hand will be difficult at be$t. A contact shot will be the $afest in my opinion. I don't know, I will have to give $ome more thought to that one.
And ye$, I was flaming all of you who like u$e the $ for their s. I find it to be in bad taste.
I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.
January 27th, 2007 05:12 AM
First, great question! This post may be irrelevant so please feel free to ignore!
I know this is completely hypothetical but it is very unlikely that a junkie would be riding the monorails looking to poke someone.
As cool as it would be, the monorail isn't used as mass transportation for Orlando. They just move people around the Disney property. This junkie would have to drive to Disney, find a parking space, and wade through the crowds, and stand in line to get to the thing in the first place. I'm sure that'd ruin anyone's buzz.
On the other hand, he'd have plenty of time and motivation to pick up a heroin habit between the parking lot and the monorail. Maybe this isn't as far fetched as I originally thought!
Oh yea -- and I'd shoot him.
January 27th, 2007 11:02 AM
Yell (if possible) to get the fam away from the dude.
But I'd probably have to shoot him, whether that worked or not.
"...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."
Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.
February 2nd, 2007 04:28 AM
A shouted warning to the other passengers on the train would potentially save a lot of lives as Americans generally don't take kindly to being poked. I would find it extremely likely that the "would be" victims nearest to the assailant would make a strong effort to debilitate him. I too would move on the assailant with deadly force (probably the knife) in an effort to protect those who were as yet unharmed by the man. I think it's wreckless and absurd to start shooting under the justification that anyone you hit would have just been another of the assailant's victims (as stated on other somewhat similar threads). Why would we go off to war to save the freedom of Americans, if we're just going to shoot a bunch on a bus? It's entirely conjecture as to who would get poked, or even what was in the hypodermic. I think this attitude in any situation is more or less fear driven. A "better them than me" attitude is not ethical (or American for that matter) when speaking of "innocent" lives. What seperates this situation from others is that the effects of the BG's weapon are not immediate. This means that even if his attack succeeds against you, you would potentially save many lives once you overcame him. I believe that if you have to put yourself in harms way to save multiple lives of strangers (yes, possibly liberals) and your family, you do it no questions asked. That's what seperates us from the lower lifeforms (like the French). Maybe I'm romanticizing this position or maybe I expect too much from my fellow man but it's what I expect from myself and the rest of you intelligent individuals.
Last edited by swedgin; February 2nd, 2007 at 05:14 AM.
If he was gonna decorate his bar with my friend, he shoulda armed himself.
February 2nd, 2007 01:18 PM
i would have say take the shot. i know i can shoot however nobody can guarantee perfection, but these people are already targets due to the up close and personal 'hype' and if i was in that unarmed victim situation, i would want someone who is armed to take him out. aim low (maybe another car behind) and aim straight.
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