Fictitious Scenario - Want to Play Along?
This is a discussion on Fictitious Scenario - Want to Play Along? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Is a hypodermic needle coming toward your wife/husband/son/daughter a threat you are willing to use deadly force over?
Absolutely. I'd act as soon as he ...
February 2nd, 2007 02:54 PM
Is a hypodermic needle coming toward your wife/husband/son/daughter a threat you are willing to use deadly force over?
Absolutely. I'd act as soon as he stuck an innocent person. Me and mine aren't the only ones I will protect.
Does it make a difference that the guy clearly has track marks on his arms?
Nope. Could care less.
Same situation as above, but the guy is clearly talking crazy and calls the needle his "beautiful AIDS machine"?
Doesn't make a difference. The threat is there (syringe with unknown contents and history), the means to deliver that threat (stabbing or slashing motion, close proximity to potential victims), the imminence of that threat (close proximity, already stabbed two people with it). I am justified in using DF and will do so without question.
07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006
Probably the only home based FFL that doesn't do transfers.
February 2nd, 2007 03:56 PM
I'd consider a syringe more of a threat than anything short of a stick of dynamite or other explosive. That syringe could have anything in it, from tainted blood to a stolen sample of Ebola (I know, not likely, but possible). And also keep in mind that an empty syringe is just as deadly, if not MORE deadly, than one filled with liquid. Stab someone with a syringe full of air, push the plunger down, and they're gonna have a really really bad day (the air in the bloodstream causes clotting and clogs arteries and veins, instigating cardiac arrest).
February 2nd, 2007 04:33 PM
If you only have 2-3 seconds I draw and shoot until threat is stopped. Nothing else I would have time to do. The needle is definitely a death threat from the aids potential or anthrax. I think you would be on firm legal ground.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
April 13th, 2007 03:56 PM
Don't know about other places, but no pat downs and no metal detectors at Disney World. Just cursory bag checks. Concealed means concealed.
Originally Posted by sgtD
April 13th, 2007 04:14 PM
Good post, +1
Originally Posted by Scott
April 13th, 2007 05:08 PM
I would get my family behind me and tell the BG to stop and drop the needle. If he didn't I would shoot at a down angle if possible to minimize chances of hitting bystanders. This guy has already stuck one person. Now is the time to act.
April 13th, 2007 06:12 PM
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
April 13th, 2007 06:21 PM
my girlfriend and i agree: shoot until he's no longer a threat. we only disagree on shot placement. she says she would attempt to cripple him with a shot to the hand or leg; i will point center mass 'til he's down.
April 13th, 2007 09:46 PM
I'm Too Old For This Crap...
When he starts stabbing people and they are screaming...my hand goes to my weapon and my family goes behind me...
We all get as far back as possible in the car/tram...
No warning...if the maniac comes in my direction AFTER stabbing anyone...take deep breaths...concentrate...I will not miss in 3-5 yards...
He's getting lead poisoning...a heavy dose...
Colateral damage is a possibility, but so is death by an AIDS injection...
Like I said from the beginning...I'm too old for this crap...not interested in a wrestling match...I'm going to punch his tram ticket for him...
Damn I hate these scenarios, but I know this stuff happens all the time...I only hope that I will be able to recognize and concentrate on the 'first' signs of trouble...
Sometimes I feel like I have aged into thinking "'This S#!! has to stop'...I've had enough...let the chips fall where they may..."
Sooner or later someone has to decide..."Let's roll!"
Stay armed...stay safe!
Last edited by RETSUPT99; April 14th, 2007 at 03:30 PM.
Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
April 14th, 2007 12:19 AM
He's standing your sitting, draw go down to one knee and fire at an upwards angle, aiming with the intent that any round that should miss or over penetrate is going to strike the roof of the compartment, avoiding any innocents and with a good chance the roof structure of the car would stop or further break up a bullet.
His intent has been clearly indicated by his actions and as others have pointed out, the use of a needle as a weapon, even without a direct statement of contamination, is and can be considered the use of lethal force, in this day and age.
No one wants to go hand to hand with a strung out druggie and who knows what this man may have been at one time, you may go to wrestle him to the ground and find out to your dismay that in better days he might have been a Green Beret or maybe a professional boxer or wrestler and may not have forgotten those skills (we train with repetition to get it right, so possibly did he when he was younger) and you have now given him access to a weapon that is entirely more lethal (immediately) than his needle....in my opinion that is not an option.
If you are carrying there is much more to it than just shoot or don't shoot and just as important as the ability to employ it in a proficient and safe manner, is also protecting it from being taken away from and used against you or others, given that the majority of people don't use security style holsters for CCW or have much training if any in retention techniques, going toe to toe is not a good idea.
Having a CCW limits some options that if you weren't carrying, would be available to you, such as going toe to toe with the guy and taking him to the ground.
Possession of a firearm in this case, removes you from the hand to hand equation, so unless you have a baton, OC spray used inside the close quarters of a rail car, will result in everyone present sharing in the experience and to some individuals it's not even as effective as soapy water, you have very few options available in the 2-3 seconds, which dwindle rapidly as you go from realisation to decision to implementation.
I would draw and shoot, there being very little time for anything else as I outlined in the opening of this post. Time is of the essence and you don't have much of it.
April 14th, 2007 04:48 AM
Very good post. It's nice to read a well reasoned and thought provoking post.
April 14th, 2007 02:34 PM
I agree with the idea of the needle being a weapon, regardless of whatever it may contain, biologicals, drugs, etc. Only one poster mentioned air, which I was also glad to see. However, no one has mentioned him breaking off the needle either by sticking it in a bone or heavy clothing, or missing and hitting a solid object. Some of you healthier types that want to go HTH could even help him break it off into a backpack, purse, whatever. Having several health issues would prevent me from the old HTH, so using a firearm would be my option. I would not try to get high to shoot down. Most vehicles have heavy framework under the passenger compartments, with possible richochet back into passenger compartment of possible fuel tanks, brake lines, etc,. If it is an elevated train, monorail, if your bullet does miss structure what about people below. 1 or 2 posters mentioned getting down on a knee and shooting upwards. I think that this would be the best possible angle, and maybe going so low as to drop on your back to get an even steeper upward angle, depending on situation, distance from perp, etc. The roof of most conveyances is primarily just sheet metal and light structural support, minimizing possibility of richochet back into compartment. Yes, I know about what goes up must come down, but when the stuff hits the fan, you just have to minimize the odds of someone getting hurt and then drop the hammer or striker, to "stop the threat."
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