Fictitious Scenario - Want to Play Along?
This is a discussion on Fictitious Scenario - Want to Play Along? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK...so as many of us do, I was sitting around thinking about the what-ifs of carrying and I thought up what I think is an ...
October 13th, 2006 07:46 AM
Fictitious Scenario - Want to Play Along?
OK...so as many of us do, I was sitting around thinking about the what-ifs of carrying and I thought up what I think is an interesting scenario. Not all that likely, but interesting just the same. This is admittedly far out there but still possible…more of a quick thinking exercise than anything. If you want to play along, let me just tie your hands a little bit though and put you in a very specific situation where this happens.
Scene: You are on a trip out of state...say in this example you go to Florida to bring your children to the theme parks. During your stay there you take some form of mass-transit (could be anything...the bus…or maybe the monorail because it feels "safer" than the bus whatever...) While in this confined space you notice (because of your keen sense of surroundings ) a suspicious character is in the same vehicle as you…you just wish that you had noticed him BEFORE you the door had closed but you didn’t...he doesn't fit in with the other passengers...he looks dirty and unkempt...it's fairly busy, but not too much...you didn't like the first couple trams that came by because they were too packed (and you are packing) and figured that you would feel more comfortable waiting for one that was not packed like sardines.
So there you sit with the suspicious character looking more and more agitated by the minute...he doesn't look like he belongs here and you don't really know how he got on this thing...you notice that he has both hands in his pockets and he's shaking a bit while swaying back and forth in rhythm....you continue to watch him, hoping that a stop is coming soon so you can get out of this car and onto another one....then it happens..something you weren't expecting even while watching the guy. He pulls out a hypodermic needle and just starts poking passengers with it...the first person that he poked didn't even notice, but the second certainly did and starts to scream. He can make it from one side of the tram to the other in a couple of seconds though there are a few people between you and the crazy person...you have a gun on your person as well as a knife but you left the OC and Tazer in the hotel ... if you get physical with him you have a good chance of getting poked.
You have figure that you have 2 - 3 seconds (before he gets to you and your family) to make a decision....go
Is a hypodermic needle coming toward your wife/husband/son/daughter a threat you are willing to use deadly force over?
Does it make a difference that the guy clearly has track marks on his arms?
Same situation as above, but the guy is clearly talking crazy and calls the needle his "beautiful AIDS machine"?
OK, so I know it's far out there, but these sort of incidents have happened to people...why, nobody knows...but needle stickers have been reported in many cities...so...what if this situation happened to you? I know that you may not have found yourself in that situation due to your ultra keen spidie sense, but just for the time being let me tie your hands and put you in a really hard situation.
October 13th, 2006 07:46 AM
October 13th, 2006 08:20 AM
Not going to use a gun. Lot's of people, kids etc. to many places for a bullet to end up. I am a best defense is a good offense type of guy. I would immediately attack the individual which would keep his focus on me and not on other people. If he really is a whacked out needle junkie I should prevail. Now if he is on something else, well then it could be interesting. However, I should be able to occupy him long enough to get to the next stop. My wife would join in as well. she also has some HtH training and between the two of us we should prevail.
Also hopefully someone else in the car will assist. You know the mob/herd mentality. There are folks who would join in probably for no other reson than to throw a beating on someone.
Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.
October 13th, 2006 08:25 AM
That's not too hard for me. I draw my gun and shoot him until he is no longer a threat. If I have good bullet placement then the world has one less BG, the courts aren't tied up and the average IQ of the state goes up a little more.
October 13th, 2006 08:59 AM
Given ONLY the limited information as described, lethal force is justified and recommended in this case because the attacker is using a pointed stabbing weapon and has already stabbed someone with it.
A needle puncture into the heart or brain could kill instantly, so using lethal force to stop a lethal attack should be done as soon as possible until the attacker has been neutralized.
October 13th, 2006 09:43 AM
I'm with Scott! to many people on board and I am responsable for every shot fired. HTH is my favorite subject and have no doubt I can make this go away and put the BG junky down quickly and with great pain. I can also move to my blade if it came down to it. The gun in this case is last resort for me.
Train and train hard, you might not get a second chance to make a first impression!
I vote for Monica Lewinsky's Ex-Boyfriend's Wife for President.....Not!
October 13th, 2006 09:44 AM
Don't some states classify his actions as "attempted murder" with the threat of HIV/AIDs.
1.Move family back as far as possible
2.If I can position myself to get a clear shot...and he is still coming at me after I draw down and tell him to stop in my Mail Call Gunny voice then he's gonna get shot
3. If the background is crowded then (guessing that I'm travelling with baggage) then use a carry on bag as a club until he sees the folly of his ways...or is knocked out.
October 13th, 2006 10:03 AM
Had to think about this one!
Since most states and many countries consider knowingly transfer of HIV some type of aggrevated assult...
And certainly assult with a hypo could easily be considered aggrevated assult...
I'd draw my weapon and in my strongest command voice tell the perp
"Stop or I will shoot you!"
I'd give the perp an opportunity to drop his weapon and drop to the ground. By this time, it's safe to assume that the distance is probably about 3 feet, face to face.
Otherwise, it would be a minimum of two taps; more if needed to stop the threat.
It would also be safe to assume in this scenario as described, that there are other males on board. Either by drawing the perp's attention to my weapon or actually putting two in his chest, that he could be overpowered and brought to the floor by the others.
With a tram/bus full of witnesses, some of whom have already been assulted, criminal proceedings against the shooter will not be an issue. It's definitely a justified shooting.
Shooting an innocent bystander, either by over-penetration or just being a bad shot would be a concern. However, if you're going to CCW, training in all areas, especially shot placement and the right type of ammo, should minimize that threat.
October 13th, 2006 10:20 AM
A train, monorail or bus cabin generally has quite a bit of space, though it's not likely to have any spare seats at a large park like that. So, assumptions are: lots of people sitting down, no spare seats, no obvious spot where someone can move to, other than the "back o' the bus." I'm assuming it's not exactly like a typical subway or light-rail car, where most folks stand and you can easily swap positions.
If with my family, immediately after realizing what was happening, I would quickly herd them to the back and have then hunker down for safety. I'd position myself in front of them. I would likely loudly demand the man with the weapon immediately stop and drop his weapon. No telling if he's got another more-obviously-deadly weapon than a needle we're merely fearful of. Still, he's got the ability, he's making the threats, and he's putting me/mine at risk by his actions. No way will I let him reach my family. If it takes a firearm to do so, than that's what gets used. Drawing is not firing, in this case, and it may well be the only way to stop a perp who's ignoring all sensibilities, all commands to halt, all commands to drop his (easily lethal) weapon. The situation would alter everything of course: bystanders, "lane" of fire, size of cabin, whether there was a spot where my family could safely hunker down, likelihood of ricochet, etc. Everything would depend on the variables.
The comparison I've got is my local light-rail. The cars are relatively large. At the end of them, you've got a raised area with a dozen seats, and the only way to approach is to come up a couple of steps into a clear, restricted lane of fire that's about ~3ft higher than where folks stand/sit below. Hence, everyone "down range" could (at a loud and insistent command) easily hunker down and leave the perp hanging out to dry as the lone standing man.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
October 13th, 2006 10:40 AM
I would use my "scary" death dealing hollowpoints ...after I've moved my family as far away as possible...and have my spouse call 911...once the guy decided/managed to work his way down to where me and my family is standing, I would double tap and reassess--no warning (I'm not a cop). Based on this scenario, this piece of garbage is hell-bent on hurting people.
As far as relying on other people to help? NOPE
If others want to jump on this guy and possibly get stuck by his nasty needle--good for them--I'm protecting my family. But since most folks are sheep, and they choose not to defend themselves, I would use them to delay this human waste to move my family as far away as possible into a defensible position.
October 13th, 2006 10:45 AM
Go into him, with a high index and shoot downward. Why would you challenge? He's already expressed intent. If his back was presented for a moment, a kidney stab would be a good debilitator, and should allow you to use your knife as a wrench to take him to the floor.
AIDS is on everybody's mind, in this scenario, but a Moslem with a syringe or two of anthrax, or "take your pick",on jihad-party-day is just as likely. And no, this isn't far fetched- EMS and LE have these encounters (albeit, they are the targets) daily. The condsideration in a terrorist scenario is that individuals innoculated are now carriers of something probably much more infective, with much shorter incubation than HIV/AIDS. The person who didn't realize they were stuck jumps off the train, as it stops, as the cops are getting on, goes home, and.........
October 13th, 2006 12:32 PM
+1 to Scott. Chances are this guy is just a strung out junkie. If you are on a resort vacation (disneyworld) you will probably have a backpack or something to carry the kids gear in. You can use that as a shield against the needle/weapon of sorts to distract him enough to get the upper hand. Should you shoot the guy I would imagine most juries would determine you used excessive force.
Originally Posted by Scott
October 13th, 2006 01:31 PM
Ya'll need to wrestle some crack-monsters. Different experiences, I guess, but, IME, if you start out talking after he's started stabbing, you'll be getting some stitches, at the least. He may not get you with a little tuberculine needle, but crusty teeth and butt-digger fingernails.
We used to let PD Tazer/baton them down, before we thought about transport.
October 13th, 2006 01:51 PM
I'm with Rob72 here. I'm not going to wrestle this nutcase.
Lethal force entirely justified and called for here. He's already expressed his intent and acted upon it. I'll give him NO chance to harm me or my family.
Where the shot(s) would be directed would be a matter of adapting to the situation. His body position -- whether he's stationary, moving upper body a lot, crouching, flailing, etc. -- would determine the direction of the shot, as well as where the other people are in the conveyance.
"We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters
October 13th, 2006 02:04 PM
The gun is certainly a last resort in this case. Too many people around, and there really is no way to clear a firing lane. If you shoot across the car, the bullet will likely go out a window and who know where it'll end up. If you shoot down the length of the car, you can't be sure of what's beyond the doors on each end. The only way I can see a secure firing lane opening up is if you can get to an elevated position and shoot down, through the BG, and through the floor of the car.
IMO, the best bet is to move to one end of the car, start throwing baggage, and get on the cell phone. If there's an emergency stop cable, have someone nearby pull it.
That said, I would certainly have my hand on my gun, and if he charged me, I might shoot him anyway, as long as there's nobody immediately behind him. But that wouldn't be my first reaction.
October 13th, 2006 02:26 PM
again...use the "scary" hollowpoints--while they are not magic bullets--you can always go to a kneeling position and shoot upward (headshot or torso at an upward angle)
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