Road rage, followed home! Happened to us recently.

This is a discussion on Road rage, followed home! Happened to us recently. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by pt111pro With all due respect to the ones offering driving advice regardless of whether or not we gave him enough distance to ...

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Thread: Road rage, followed home! Happened to us recently.

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array 1MoreGoodGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pt111pro View Post
    With all due respect to the ones offering driving advice regardless of whether or not we gave him enough distance to use our high beams, which I feel like we did but he would obviously argue, he still had no right to do what he did. My asking for opinions on what I could have done better was geared more towards what to do to keep my family safe....being this is a defensive forum and all.

    To clarify a couple of points that have been mentioned, he was driving a full size Ford pickup, and we are very familiar with the roads as we drive them daily. The closest "well lit public area" was 10 miles back the direction we came from.
    I'm not saying this guy didn't act inappropriately

    Your first mistake was putting on your high-beams when driving behind another vehicle.
    Your second mistake was not matching the speed of the vehicle in front of you when it started slowing down.
    Your third mistake was putting on your high-beams a second time while driving behind the same vehicle. (it is unclear from your story if this happened more than twice)
    Your fourth mistake was stopping your vehicle when the other driver stopped his vehicle and got out to confront you.
    Your fifth mistake was not calling the authorities when he attempted to confront you.
    Not leaving and not heading in the opposite direction was your sixth mistake.
    When he got back in his car and drove off you and your wife should have never pursued him (this was your seventh mistake and probably your biggest since it seems like he had already got back in his vehicle and left you alone). You intentionally chased after him in an attempt to get close enough to read his tags so that you could report him to the authorities for being agitated because your high-beams were causing an unsafe driving condition (this was your eighth mistake).
    Allowing him to follow you to anywhere but a police station or to where a police office is located was your ninth mistake.
    Your tenth mistake was being "slightly less polite when I informed him that I don't take threats to my family lightly."

    Again, I'm not saying that this guy didn't act inappropriately and didn't also make mistakes because he clearly did both.

    Use this as learning experience and when possible attempt to deescalate the situation.
    Regards,
    1MoreGoodGuy
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  3. #47
    Member Array pt111pro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post

    Use this as learning experience and when possible attempt to deescalate the situation.
    That's why I am here and posted this. Thanks for the advice.
    68blackbird likes this.

  4. #48
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    Road rage, followed home! Happened to us recently.

    Road-rage is a problem that you may not be able to get away from once it is started ... Deescalation works only if the other party cooperates..country road driving at night is safer with high beams, slower speeds do help and ptt's did slowed down to 55... That was an attempt to deescalate ... But the guy waited for them! Now is not a high beam or deescalation issue, the guy was looking for trouble.

    You did what you needed to do...you kept your family safe.. Somebody mentioned following up with the police... That is good advice. you also need to help your dad and neighbors secure their property, they need to know about this guy just in case he is a looney. Maybe even getting a picture of him from the authorities and showing to the tenants of the other two houses. Nothing may happen but it's best to be prepared.
    68blackbird likes this.
    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

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  5. #49
    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    You did what you thought was right at the time and fortunately nobody was hurt. I've posted this quote before. I'm posting it again not to judge your actions but, as a reminder for ME and you.

    "As a gun owner, you have to be cool-headed, more-so than the police ever have to be. You do not ever run around pretending to be the police while carrying a gun because then, stuff like this can happen. You do not start stuff, act aggressively, flip the bird, roll your eyes, talk smack, or even raise your voice to anyone, ever.

    A combat instructor (who happened to be Buddhist and a Marine) once said to me:
    "From now on, when dealing with (ed.) crazy / possibly violent people, you will lose every argument. You are always wrong. You are sorry for impinging on their day.

    You will apologize and apologize again. You will back the heck down. You will put your tail between your legs. You will let them talk stuff about your lady friend. You will let them call your mother a witch and a hooker, your dad a punk.
    You have no ego. You do all this because if you are the one to start a fight, by default that fight now has a gun in it, and if you start losing, you're going to pull it and kill him.

    Even if you don't go to jail because you could convince the jury that it was self-defense, you're going to have to live with the fact that you took someone's life in defense of your pride and ego not your life.

    You are not the police, so don't act like them. Though many of you [civilians] are better shots than the police, you do not have the training, the continuum of force policy, a union, plus free lawyers protecting you if you screw up.

    In closing he added “After backing down and trying to apologize, if at any time you then feel your life or that of a loved one is in danger, put three rounds into his [cardiothoracic] vault, call the police, call your lawyer, give a statement, go home, and sleep like a baby. You did all you could for your attacker, and he was the one that made the final decision...... to kill himself."

    I didn't write this but, as a legally armed citizen, I try to live by it.
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

    Mike Tyson

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    I'm not saying this guy didn't act inappropriately

    Your first mistake was putting on your high-beams when driving behind another vehicle.
    Your second mistake was not matching the speed of the vehicle in front of you when it started slowing down.
    Your third mistake was putting on your high-beams a second time while driving behind the same vehicle. (it is unclear from your story if this happened more than twice)
    Your fourth mistake was stopping your vehicle when the other driver stopped his vehicle and got out to confront you.
    Your fifth mistake was not calling the authorities when he attempted to confront you.
    Not leaving and not heading in the opposite direction was your sixth mistake.
    When he got back in his car and drove off you and your wife should have never pursued him (this was your seventh mistake and probably your biggest since it seems like he had already got back in his vehicle and left you alone). You intentionally chased after him in an attempt to get close enough to read his tags so that you could report him to the authorities for being agitated because your high-beams were causing an unsafe driving condition (this was your eighth mistake).
    Allowing him to follow you to anywhere but a police station or to where a police office is located was your ninth mistake.
    Your tenth mistake was being "slightly less polite when I informed him that I don't take threats to my family lightly."

    Again, I'm not saying that this guy didn't act inappropriately and didn't also make mistakes because he clearly did both.

    Use this as learning experience and when possible attempt to deescalate the situation.
    I'll go one step further: the guy is an idiot, a loose cannon, and a threat to society. Not worth putting him away for this, but I expect he'll be dead or incarcerated soon. Hope he doesn't hurt anyone before then. But there is NO excuse for what he did: he was clearly overreacting and a major hothead. No excuses for him!

    But 1MoreGoodGuy summed it up quite nicely: GIVEN the fact that you're involved in a confrontation with an idiot, those were the mistakes.

    But... (one more step back)... once you made the various mistakes, everyone did get to go home that night. You did OK.

    Could have avoided it? Sure. I could have avoided rolling my car on a wet mountain turn a few months ago, too. But I learned my lesson (took a motel in town the night before freezing rain, for example, so I could safely get to work). Sounds like 1) you've heard what folks have said and MOST IMPORTANTLY, AND I HOPE THE GANG NOTICES THIS, 2) you are obviously a together enough person to respond with grace to criticism: teachability is the highest and finest sign and predictor of success I've ever seen, and you exhibit it. It's a rare commodity: good for you for listening instead of blustering/defending/blowharding like we so often see. Bravo!

  7. #51
    Senior Member Array Lish's Avatar
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    I agree with a few others that at the end of the day it all worked out and everyone was safe, that's the most important thing.

    For me, as soon as he stopped in the road and your wife threw the car in reverse, I'd be calling 911 or at the least backtracking, if he followed going back the direction y'all originally came from that's a 911 call no doubt. Personally, I wouldn't have brought him home, even with backup there. I'd be worried at some point he'll show back up. He's obviously off kilter and now he knows where a loved one lives - that's scary to me. I understand why you did, get the wife and child to a safe place and have your dad at your back, but IMO allowing him to follow you home is what I would change.

  8. #52
    Member Array ddclancy's Avatar
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    I usually only used my brights when there is no one in front of me, doesn't matter how far ahead they are. Once he stopped on the highway and approched my vehicle I would have already unholstered my firearm in a non-brandishing way. Did you ready your firearm just in case you needed to protect your family?

    My dad would have been out there with one of 2 guns: an AR-15 or a Benelli M4 and my brother would have been in the upper bedroom window with with a scoped and chambered .308 AR.

    Road rage is a bad situation, people just get too excited!
    I don't always carry two concealed S&W 500's.........JUST KIDDING!

  9. #53
    Member Array pt111pro's Avatar
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    The people that live out there are well aware of him now, and my parents breed and raise household security systems so they are as prepared as they can be.

    Luis50, I have read that on here before, and it's easy to read and think I need to do this, but harder to actually put it in practice once in a situation. Thanks for the reminder, maybe that needs to be part of my daily affirmations.

    Paymeister, I am all for not repeating history.

    After I had a chance to think about the situation I started to see that I had more options that I thought at the time. I would definitely do things differently in hindsight. The biggest thing I think I am taking away from this, aside from the various errors pointed out by 1moregoodguy, is assuming it was over when it wasn't. Since we slowed way down and let him get way ahead of us I thought that was the end of it. Given everything else, next time in that sort of situation distance won't be enough, we will u-turn and make tracks the way we came.

    One of the things I did when I first decided to get my carry permit was start reading forums, and this one has been a wealth of information over the years. So again, thank you for all the responses.

  10. #54
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    I have nothing to add as to the scenario, but I find your openness to constructive criticism without taking it personally to be refreshing, not always a trait displayed on these boards.
    I'd rather be lucky than good any day

    There's nothing that will change someone's moral outlook quicker than cash in large sums.

    Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.

  11. #55
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    I'd say you acted in a very similar I would like to think I would. Seems you were calm and used your common, law-abiding sense. Glad you're okay. Happy CC'ing
    EDC: M&P 9*2
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  12. #56
    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pt111pro View Post
    The people that live out there are well aware of him now, and my parents breed and raise household security systems so they are as prepared as they can be.

    Luis50, I have read that on here before, and it's easy to read and think I need to do this, but harder to actually put it in practice once in a situation. Thanks for the reminder, maybe that needs to be part of my daily affirmations.
    Paymeister, I am all for not repeating history.

    After I had a chance to think about the situation I started to see that I had more options that I thought at the time. I would definitely do things differently in hindsight. The biggest thing I think I am taking away from this, aside from the various errors pointed out by 1moregoodguy, is assuming it was over when it wasn't. Since we slowed way down and let him get way ahead of us I thought that was the end of it. Given everything else, next time in that sort of situation distance won't be enough, we will u-turn and make tracks the way we came.

    One of the things I did when I first decided to get my carry permit was start reading forums, and this one has been a wealth of information over the years. So again, thank you for all the responses.
    I understand. That's why the first sentence in my post was; "You did what you thought was right at the time and fortunately nobody was hurt."

    You sound pretty level headed and I think you'll be fine going forward.
    68blackbird likes this.
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

    Mike Tyson

  13. #57
    Distinguished Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    I would have reacted much as you did, let him pass if he wanted, let him have plenty of space, you did well to move away from him when he was asking for a fight, and you notified the cops that he was being a menace. When you are that rural I would not have taken a chance at varying my route, in that I may have driven into an area with dead end roads possibly trapping us in. Stopping him at the front gate was the right thing to do, He did not know who was in the car. You backed down and de escalated every chance you got. I would have probably done the same. I spent 18 years working nights, and have had my share of idiots with bright lights, but given a couple of hundred yards between you and him, He was looking for a reason. DR

  14. #58
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    I don't really have any problems with what you did, under the circumstances. Now with this discussion, what would you have done differently? If anything?

    I might add, it looks like this guy is a chronic troublemaker, looking for any excuse to escalate something. He chose not to de-escalate his perceived "bright lights" incident from you.

    I'm glad there are other houses down that road, along with your dads.

    BTW are your headlights aimed correctly?
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Iowa DOT requires low beams within 1000 feet of an oncoming vehicle, 500 feet when following.

    at 60 miles an hour, that equates to about 7.5 seconds away from an oncoming vehicle at the same speed (closing speed halves the time).

    About 6 seconds away from a vehicle moving in the same direction. 500'= ~1/10 of a mile at a mile a minute, 60 mph.

    you can use power poles/mile markers/mailboxes as a marker to start timing.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  16. #60
    Distinguished Member Array GlassWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pt111pro View Post
    Ok, let me start with some background information. I have been a member here for a while, I read frequently but post very rarely. I have been carrying (concealed) for about 3 years. Still feel like I have a lot to learn, but I do take my responsibility to protect myself and wife and child very seriously.

    This happened to us a few nights ago and after having some time to process it, I thought I would post on here and try to gain some insight on what other people would have done/what I could better do in the future.

    The three of us, my wife myself and our ten year old, were heading to my parents for our Christmas dinner. They live in a very rural area, week before this night their neighbor had a medical emergency and it was well over 30 minutes before first responders were able to get out there. We left town heading to their house on a two lane road with no shoulders. From the town we left to the first turn headed to their house is about 9 miles. About a mile before the first turn there is a gas station on the side of the road. About three miles before the gas station a truck passed us, my wife was driving and had the cruise set on 67. She dimmed her lights and let the truck get a couple hundred yards ahead of us before turning her brights back on. When she did so the truck slowed down to around 45 and we came up behind him. She dimmed her lights and he drove about 45 mph for just a bit and then sped back up. We were thinking he was looking for a place to turn or something. Repeat that whole process, he got back ahead of us, she gave him plenty of room before turning brights back on, and this time when she did he slowed down until we caught up with him and then stopped completely in the road and got out. With both hands raised in the air and mouthing something he proceeded towards our vehicle.

    At this point we were several miles outside town with no houses in sight. My wife immediately threw it in reverse and started backing up, at which point he got back in his truck and sped off. She pulled forward enough that I could get his tag number and then waited for him to take off before we did the same. The two or three miles from there to the gas station we drove about 55 and gave him plenty of distance, and thought it would be over. When we got to the gas station I noticed him sitting in the parking lot and told my wife that he would probably get behind us, and sure enough he did, with his brights on. Since we were going under the speed limit another car had caught us and was now in between us. When we made the first turn and he followed us I got on the phone. We we at least 10 miles from the town we came from and if we had kept going instead of turning it's 30 miles to the next town with nothing in between but farm houses and oil field roads. Knowing that law enforcement would be miles away, and knowing he would more than likely follow us al the way to their house I called my dad and told him what was going on, asked him to meet us at the end of their driveway and call the Sheriff for us.

    Knowing my dad would be well armed and not knowing if there were other people in the truck with him or if he was armed I decided that would be the best course of action. He turned down the gravel road along with us and as we got to their drive way my dad was waiting for us, he was carrying a Kimber 1911 and I was carrying in an outside the waste band holster. I got out of the car and told my wife and kid to go on up to their house and joined my dad at the gate. Just as I thought, the gentleman, and I use that term very loosely, tried to turn in their drive way. My dad politely informed him that he was on private property and was trespassing and needed to go back the way he came from. He ignored that request and said "I just want to ask him what's up with his bright lights". I was slightly less polite when I informed him that I don't take threats to my family lightly. He insisted he never threatened me, and I told him that took him getting out in the middle of the highway and coming towards our car and then following us several miles to a private drive in the middle of no where a definite threat. The whole time dad was on the phone with the 911 dispatcher, and after a advising him several times to leave that we were on the phone with 911 and had given them his tag number he offered his name and said he wasn't "afraid of the law" and would wait for them at the end of the road. he did not follow up on that promise.

    We sat down to eat and the Sheriff came out, took a statement and said he would have a visit with him and that was pretty much the end of it. I did look him up on our local court records site and saw that he has more than his share of run ins with the law including domestic assault and stay away orders from several people. I really believe he was just looking for trouble.

    I will add that as I exited our car I did pull my shirt up and over my firearm as open carry is now legal in our area. My dad was also openly carrying his firearm, but other than that our firearms were not involved in any way.

    So with that, what would you have done differently?
    My step-father's mother drove like that. She'd wait till a car pased her, was exactly 100 yards ahead of her (according to state law in MI) then she'd turn her brights on. It used to tick me off to no end. Personally, if I can see another car ahead of me, in either direction, the lights stay dimmed as a courtesy.

    In regards to doing something differently, maybe adjust your thoughts on the use of bright lights a pinch? Different cars and trucks have lights at different heights, and different projection angles, so some brights just hit you right in the mirror and are blinding. Especially when they hit the side view mirror that can't be flipepd down for night driving. It really can make you grind your teeth, especially when you have to deal with it for a long distance.
    Truckinbutch likes this.

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