Scenario: Liquor Store
This is a discussion on Scenario: Liquor Store within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In Virginia liquor stores are state run. They are very good places and rarely the scene of any crime in my area. This was an ...
January 1st, 2005 11:12 AM
Scenario: Liquor Store
In Virginia liquor stores are state run. They are very good places and rarely the scene of any crime in my area. This was an exception.
You are at the cash register paying for your liquor when three young \"gentlemen\" come in wearing big jackets and neck gators up on their faces (yes it is cold outside) and walk to the back of the store. The store is a rectangle. Three aisles running front to back about 30-35 feet to the back. The store is about 20-25 feet wide. At the register you are slightly offset from the center aisle, the clerk is straight on to the center aisle. You and the clerk are the only ones there, other than the three gentlemen, as it is about 10 minutes to closing.
At the back of the store each of the gentlemen take an aisle and begin heading back to the front. Your CCW pistol is a Sig P229/40, it is in a fanny pack in front. Your hand is on it and it is oriented in the direction of the gentleman in the center aisle. None of the gentlemen have presented a weapon of any kind yet. However, your powers of observation indicate that these gentlemen are not shopping for liquor.
You can chose to ignore the details about what you are carrying and how if you would prefer to think about your own method and pistol. This is obviously from an actual event, which is why I know the details. No worries about the clerk not being the clerk or the \"gentlemen\" being police or anything other than some thugs looking to rob a liquor store at closing time.
I know how it was dealt with, but I see several ways it could be dealt with.
January 1st, 2005 12:24 PM
As you are \'paying'for your purchase w a check, you write a quick note to the clerk \"I dont like this, delay my purchase so you are not alone\". Have the clerk tell you the check cannot be accepted and begin an arguement. My guess is that the longer you stay, the less confidence our 3 gentlemen will have. Yell out at the clerk, \"go ahead, call the police, this check is good\"!!!!! If the clerk is on the ball, he\'ll yell \"fine\" pick up the phone and place a call telling the operator that there is 1 or more suspicous/argumentative persons in his store and he needs an officer asap. If your boys are slightly intelligent, they skate.
How\'d I do?
January 1st, 2005 02:06 PM
Pretty simple, leave. Sorry, not my problem.
I carry a gun/s to protect me and mine:exclaim:
January 1st, 2005 02:58 PM
I fully understand your stance. In this case, though, it appears you are 99% already involved. If these cats are already approaching the front, then one is covering possivle entry/exit to one side of the bldg, one is probably working to the cash register and clerk, and dude three is more than likely heading for the main enterance to work crowd control at the door. Good chance there may be an associate of theirs already at the door and may feel that your leaving early could interfere with thier plans (ie, you\'re headed for help). My post was with the idea that the more activity around the counter, especially involving leo\'s, may act as a preventative, thus saving me and the counter guy any grief.
There are a number of ways this can be handled, and I agree, you got no dog in this fight, at least up to the point we\'ve been given info on, but you may before you get clear.
Looking foreward to others'answeres.
January 1st, 2005 03:10 PM
Any person working in any liquor store already knows the risks attached to taking that particular job in the first place.
They should already know that a certain portion of their \"customer base\" will be worthless scum.
Leave...leave your items unpurchased if need be.
Go out the door - to another or safe location & call the police ASAP.
I can\'t speak for you other you other folks but there are too many people (family wife etc.) that depend on my personal \"well being\" for me to ever \"interject myself\" into a possible robbery situation that is none of my doggone business.
Let the cops handle it. It\'s their job.
My firearm is for my own personal protection.
It is for the last resort protection of myself & family.
I guess if I saw some little kid or female etc. about to be clubbed over the head with a baseball bat then I would have no choice but to act & suffer whatever consequences.
But, for a possible impending robbery that may or may not happen...I would put myself on \"higher alert\" and get the heck out of there or get behind decent cover.
Just my opinion.
If my weapon were in a damn fanny pack then (for sure) I would not know what exactly to do.
Talk about an OBVIOUS reach for a weapon!
If need be I can draw and fire from the shoulder damn fast & without being too obvious. What exactly happened within the next few seconds would determine my exact action but I would sure EXIT as a first option.
January 1st, 2005 03:20 PM
Awwwright, Scott- pony up!
How was it handled?
January 1st, 2005 03:38 PM
I think KC135 and QKShooter describe what should be done very well. These drills bring back my ccw training session and some words used by the instructor;they in effect say mind your business, your not the cop on the beat. These drills are really good for us and hope we see more.
January 1st, 2005 03:48 PM
My yellow light is on as soon as the decision is made to stop at a liquer store. I checked inside before I entered. Made my purchase quickly, and as soon as the three entered, prepared to leave (now in condition orange) when they spread out, I was on my way out. Ready to handle anything outside by \'giving'him my purchase.
As stated earlier, not really interested in saving the world, just my butt. Situation might change if my wife was with me. Then it would be me and mine.:)
January 1st, 2005 05:20 PM
You guys are correct, of course. Not your job. It would be difficult tho, in the morning to see the headline about the clerk being iced by thugs leaving his widow and kids. Especially if just by being there (armed or not) would be incintive enough for our \"3\" to have gone elsewhere to an easier, more deserted store.
Before anyone throws out the old \"well, he should know as a clerk in a liquor store the risks he runs\". As I bet he does. An out of work father or husband will take a lot of jobs to feed his family. Just ask me. I pulled plastic off tomatoe rows for awhile while looking for my dream job. My dream job is phone cable repair. So, I am aware that falling and breaking my neck is a risk I run. But if a passerby sees that my ladder is fixin to fall and warns me, or somehow prevents it, I\'m sure my wife and kids will be thankful to them forever. Or, the folks killed at Luby\'s should have been aware that a madman may crash thru the diner at any moment and shoot the place up. Had someone been able to prevent that slaughter, should they?
Another thought entered my mind as I was taking my walk. These guys sound as tho this aint there first rodeo. Probably not looking to shoot anyone.
Anyhow, I cannot force my morals on anyone else and to expect them to take any risks not needed is wrong. But I cant help but think: would the criminal element as a whole be a lot more reserved if more and more regular citizens got involved. I dont mean running gun fights, I mean just being there for one another.
January 1st, 2005 06:10 PM
I hear you jdsumner, perhaps where we live and how well do we know the people around us will influence our actions. But today is a different animal in life, the law is waiting for a screwup when carring a gun. You are out there by yourself, no organizations in back of you to provide advice and comfort in the face of legal threats, just you. I believe that will weigh heavy on some minds. We are only talking about what we may do here and can adjust thoughts with better tactics, in real life who knows. Keep the good stuff coming!
January 1st, 2005 06:28 PM
I guess what I\'m sayin'is that we (lawful citizens) lost our streets when we became forced to adopt an attitude of always and only lookin'out for #1. That then morphed into apathy towards our brother. I dont consider violent criminals humans. They are monsters, unconcerned w who they hurt to get what they want. However, for the most part they are cowards. If they feel they are not in complete control, they normally abandon their plans. That\'s what I meant about not leaving the clerk alone. Not so much a gun thing or looking to be in a firefight, but not walking out and leaving the dude to be eaten. But, I get what your sayin\'. Believe me, I\'ve offered my new ccw buddies the same advice you guys are layin'on me. And you\'re right. Just be safe out there, catch my back if ya can, and If I\'m around, I\'ll catch yers.
January 1st, 2005 07:53 PM
jd, you know I just have to take exception.
Anyone who wishs to do other than \'move out'has my best wishes. My thing protecting others was done a long time ago, in two wars, probably long before many of the members on this site were born.
All of my post military training has had emphasis on two things...avoidance, and going home to family.
January 1st, 2005 08:05 PM
The scenario basically breaks down to 3 suspicious individuals separated but approaching from one direction in an enclosed space where there is a somewhat \"greater than normal\" likelihood of an \"event\" occurring.
Since the three jokers (as of yet) have not actually done anything (in any way) offensive (except look guilty) - I guess that all you can do is go on higher alert & place yourself in the best possible position to be prepared for whatever will happen while you are gaining distance from the situation.
If anything DOES happen it will probably happen VERY FAST.
Thinking About It...It\'s not exactly a \"moment in time\" when I would like to have my backside toward possible multiple armed attackers while I was heading for the door.
It might be a good idea to fake a forgotten wallet or a lost credit card so that you could have something to talk to the clerk about as you are quickly backing out toward the door.
The fanny pack would ABSOLUTELY have to go into the trash can after that incident! Too Slow & Too Obvious to be effective.
You also said \"However, your powers of observation indicate that these gentlemen are not shopping for liquor.\"
That would be the exact instant that I would have left the premises & called LEO.
So...would I have left the clerk? You bet!
Am I heartless...No Way! - but I am not \"Batman\" either.
For the same reason that I would not take a job at a convenience store...I personally would not take a clerk job in a liquor store or a pawn shop. If I were working in a convenience store or liquor store then I would expect to be robbed 24/7 & I would (hopefully) be prepared for that forthcoming event. I would not expect any random \"good Samaritan\" customer to bail my ass out. I am not responsible for the safety & \"well being\" of unknown people who take hazardous jobs with high probability of armed assault.
AND...should you act & the clerk catch a random bullet then that clerk will \"likely as not\" drag your poor tail into court & blame you.
I can just hear it now...
\"Well, I been robbed seven times before & I always been OK by just givin'up the money....until HE tried to save me!\"
No Thanks! - Liquor Store Clerk - You\'re on your own!
I\'ll call the cops & take down a license plate number if I can.
I understand that folks will take any job to feed the family.
They also hopefully take that job knowing that their are grave risks involved with that job.
Hopefully, they have common sense enough to work out a \"battle plan\" for themselves.
I know that I would do that if I were forced by \"money concerns\" into taking that sort of risky job.
I have a family to feed also & I don\'t want my wife taking a Seven Eleven job in order to feed herself & family & pay the mortgage if I don\'t happen to come home!
That is my priority Numero Uno.
Looking on the bright side I sure would help anybody or any stranger that needed \"normal help\" - but I sure do draw the line at entering into a deadly gunfight to help a stranger that has placed himself in a high risk job for whatever unknown (to me) reason. Sorry!
January 1st, 2005 09:49 PM
Actually, the point was by disrupting the plan, NO ONE, not me, not them, not the clerk pulls a gun. In fact, no where in my posts did I even allude to using a gun. Being there screws up the plan, telling the clerk to \'go ahead and call the cops'about the bad check screws up the plan. My guess is they leave. I was also looking at this as these are experienced guys by the timing of thier arrival, the paths they take down aisles, and the covered faces. BUT, my guesses have been wrong before. These may in fact be rank amateurs who now panic and do ideed shoot. Or, they may be homicidal no matter what. In fact, the more I think about it, how many \'caught on tape'shows have we seen where the bg robs a store with customers in it. That is usually one robber, though. That is why I figured these guys to move to an easier target which fit the plan. So, I concede. Most effective method is the Nike Principle, all the while using the cell. Gentlemen, you are most correct.
January 1st, 2005 10:40 PM
Sorry, lost internet for awhile. Just got back to this. More info. The customer was an off duty cop. He caught the center gentlemen\'s eys and shook his head with his hand on his P229. The gentlemen in the center said let\'s go to the other two and outside they went. The cop got outside quick enough to get a tag on the getaway car. He never heard back if anything happened to them or not. He could have bailed out the door. I forgot to put that in the original post. The checkout is usually a few feet from the door in our liquor stores. He stayed because of his LEO status. The clerk was very grateful that the cop stayed around. Also so that the clerk would know he was a LEO he whispered I\'m 5-0 to him. He got it and didn\'t give anything away or get to excited.
I like the call the cops if you don\'t think my check is any good deal.
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