Is there a way to defend against this type of mugging? (Video, Not graphic) - Page 2

Is there a way to defend against this type of mugging? (Video, Not graphic)

This is a discussion on Is there a way to defend against this type of mugging? (Video, Not graphic) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I doubt I would have drawn a firearm in this scenario. At about the nine second mark, it was time to get off the X ...

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Thread: Is there a way to defend against this type of mugging? (Video, Not graphic)

  1. #16
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    I doubt I would have drawn a firearm in this scenario. At about the nine second mark, it was time to get off the X and get the fixed blade working.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I doubt I would have drawn a firearm in this scenario. At about the nine second mark, it was time to get off the X and get the fixed blade working.
    Can you draw the blade faster? Why not the gun? People who get in knife fights tend to get stabbed.

    I am not trying to be condescending, and I applaud you for having a violent plan to defend yourself.

  3. #18
    Member Array ScottieG59's Avatar
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    Re: Is there a way to defend against this type of mugging? (Video, Not graphic)

    Some ATMs are made for ambushes. Some have hedges blocking one's view. There was one near my home that had stairs next to it going to a basement door and there was no way to see if an ambush awaited.

    Situational awareness is important as it is to have a plan. One should not be afraid to act with all ferocity and without delay.

    There are times I had my hand on my gun hidden from view when I sensed something was wrong. Now, with my Kahr PM9, it is easy to be at the discrete ready.

    When I used to go to New York City, I only carried what I could afford to lose. Also, I kept my mugger wallet available and stocked with cash to soothe the criminal mind.

    Now, I avoid places like New York and New Jersey. I would avoid New York even my CCL covered it.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    Can you draw the blade faster? Why not the gun? People who get in knife fights tend to get stabbed.

    I am not trying to be condescending, and I applaud you for having a violent plan to defend yourself.
    Yes, I can deploy the fixed blades a bit faster. I'm not being condescending either when I ask you if you have ever done any serious knife training.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    Yep, he missed his first chance to move away when the first guy had trouble hopping off the bike. With a little training he could have locked up BG1's arm and thrown him in front of BG2 giving him a chance to move away and draw a weapon if he had one. He apparently had no training and was unwilling to let go of his bag, which would have allowed him to use both hands against an assailant who now would have one of his hands tied up with the bag.

    As has been mentioned, bad location.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array beni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElArdilla View Post
    Totally agree, this is where many gun people get hung up. The question is "how do I neutralize my attackers?" not "how can I get my gun into this fight?". The instant the first laid hands on his shoulder/backpack the victim should have exploded violently and aggressively. It looked like a solid hit to the throat was available as was the potential to escape across the street.

    Even a forceful shove could have been enough to gain distance and draw and/or escape. When the encounter is already hands on the best respond is probably a counter hands on approach. The gun is a strong tool, but it's not always the quickest.
    I agree. it seems that many people just assume that their gun is all they will need, and it will get them out of any situation. Even if the guy in the video had a gun he wouldn't of had he chance to deploy it. Any good H2H training will cause a person to just react when they literally have no time to process the situation. Despite what people say about having good SA, we all make mistakes and despite what we think it is not possible to stay locked on at all times.

    I train more in H2H than I do with my gun becuase if there is ever a time where a BG happens to catch me off guard and gets within touching distance to me, I'll be able to react instantly, with overwhelming force until he is no longer a threat or I've created space to draw my gun.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array beni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Yes, I can deploy the fixed blades a bit faster. I'm not being condescending either when I ask you if you have ever done any serious knife training.
    Quick question, is the knife training you had like a specialized class in the same way firearms training is? Or is it apart of some Martial Arts you take?

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
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    ATM on the street.
    Stayed when he knew something bad was about to happen.
    Didn't fight back.
    This guy was a victim from the get go.

    Who dares wins. Maybe get killed, or gain and maintain the initiative. At some point you need to knock some people out and draw your gun on whoever is still around trying to harm you. This situation could have been avoided of course, which is the better option.

    Austin

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I doubt I would have drawn a firearm in this scenario. At about the nine second mark, it was time to get off the X and get the fixed blade working.
    While I agree with Mike that this is the time and place for the knife, the knife is not my go to weapon. I will use a knife but don't like to. My attack would be H2H on and through the first BG moving to the street. Hopefully that would give me room to bring the gun into play. If not do what needs to be done.

    While Mike's move is the knife since he's in close he stays and goes to work. I like movement, hand strikes and making room for the gun. Both will work if done right. In a situation like this is not the time to try whatever you do for the first time.

    This is one reason I like FOF with airsofts. You get to know what works for you and what you like to do in a fight without being in the real things and dying before you find out.
    Hoganbeg likes this.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by beni View Post
    Quick question, is the knife training you had like a specialized class in the same way firearms training is? Or is it apart of some Martial Arts you take?
    This: Defensive Knife – Tactical Defense Institute - Tactical, Firearms Training, pistol, rifle, shotgun
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Yes, I can deploy the fixed blades a bit faster. I'm not being condescending either when I ask you if you have ever done any serious knife training.
    Nope! Though Lord knows I'd like to. Knife fighting is probably one of my favorite martial arts to watch in action, and I'd love to have the skill.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
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  12. #27
    Member Array GeorgiaShooter's Avatar
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    Actually drawing would have got him killed instantly. No way in the world he could defend without running, disarming the attacker or some way to change the dynamic. The real answer is to study the ATM locations and never use one like this where people pass behind in your personal space and especially if they can ride vehicles 2 inches from your back. What an amazingly stupid choice. He also had zero situational awareness. SA isn't SA when you see it coming 4 feet away. Someone has to be stopped long before they get that close. Sorry to say but this guy was doomed from the beginning and anything he did to resist would have likely got him dead. Now granted a 1.2 second draw and fire with substantially good hits might have killed the robber but hard to say. I personally think the odds would not be with you. Your reaction time cannot beat someone that close already in motion and not even revealing their knife immediately. A knife never runs out of bullets and amost impossible to defend against up close, and in some cases MORE deadly than a gun. Also having a good knife yourself may be an idea eh?

    I would LIKE to say my response would have been a huge kick to his chest or a volley ball serving smack to the temple and run and draw as I escaped and covered myself around that cab. All I know is I would not draw as my initial reaction.
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  13. #28
    Member Array lordofwyr's Avatar
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    Here are the issues as I see them from the vid:

    1. He was caught up in the "What the H#ll is going on here" syndrome and it cost him any chance to do anything. He looked like at first he thought they were just pulling up to use the ATM, and by the time he figured out what was going on, it was too late. This happens a lot with the disbelief overwhelming the built in fight or flight mechanisms.

    2. Because he was caught so off guard, he went straight into "Condition Black." He was so far into "Condition White" going about his day (totally unaware of his surroundings and should have been in a lounge chair asleep instead of on the streets) that he could not make any transition to anything except shut down mode, which I have seen people do when confronted with something bad. .

    3. He was facing way too many areas of responsibility to do anything else by the time he figure it out. He has one guy with a big knife he can see clearly in front of him, but also has one behind him and does not / cannot know how he might be armed, plus two more guys he has lost track of on the bikes. In that case, even if you try to shove and run you may be shot in the back.

    4. The robbers, to me, really look like they are looking for something specific in their searching of him. I wonder if he was already scoped out and they knew exactly what they were looking for, perhaps other than the money he may have taken out.

    5. Finally, he had cars pulling close, and could not know if they were involved or just passers by.

    All of that and the fact it was over in seconds made it impossible for anyone without a lot of training and already being in "Condition Yellow" to do much more than be a victim and hopefully come out alive.

    Now, could he have made his odds better from the start? Yep. In America, do not use poorly placed ATMs. Before approaching any ATM, make sure you look around and at least make a small plan of action just in case. Try to be aware of your surroundings.

    Oh, and have a gun easily accessible and the mindset to use it.
    Fortune Favors the Bold!

  14. #29
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    Your situational awarness means nothing if you are not going to do anything about what it tells you.

    You should never be saying after the fact that "it all happened so fast." You better know right now that it's always going to happen fast.

    If you fail to act, you are going to lose. It's just that simple.

    If your first mental response it something along the lines of "I can't believe this is happening..." You're likely going to be victimized. There's another thread running right now where a ccw holder just stood there and allowed himself to get shot in the face repeatedly with a pellet gun.

    This is all stuff you should have planned for prior to carrying a gun. If you carry a gun for self defense, then you better be prepared to "immediately counter-attack with overwheming violence of action." Anything else will likely be futile.

    The guy in this video looked down the street and saw two motorcycles approaching him with multiple riders. As soon as the first one pulled up and the passenger popped off, he should have been drawing his gun. The second motorcycle with passenger was less than a second behind the first one. That's a mob. And that's disparity of force.

    Regardless, the last thing he should have done was stand there with his back against the wall.

    You carry a gun to defend your life. If you're the kind of person who's first thought is to deny what the situation really is, then you have no business carrying a gun.

    If you don't have a clear picture of what constitutes a lethal threat when it presents itself, then leave your gun at home until you know what you are facing.

    BTW... It's going to happen fast. If you can't process information quickly, you have no business with a gun.

    JMHO
    Bill MO likes this.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #30
    Member Array Phisher34's Avatar
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    Lot's of really great points - digging the conversation.
    There are a few things that really stick out to me about this scenario.

    1) The victim did have some modicum of SA - he turned to look toward the bikers and then continued to observe when they stopped in front of him. He should have turned toward the threat - but we have all had those moments where something just isn't right and it pulls our attention. Anything from the way a person is walking to the feeling of being watched.

    2) Recognition of a threat is (arguably) more important than how quick you are on the draw. This man should have acted on fight or flight the moment the bikes stopped in traffic in front of him. Running can buy you more time to draw a CCW, hand to hand can create distance, but if you don't recognize the threat quick enough it doesn't matter.

    3) The knife wielding mugger does slash at the victim near the end of the confrontation. This could have easily have been a death blow if it connected. Now, our victim is struggling to run away at this point which might have motivated the mugger. But if you choose to resist - resist like Bark'n said: with overwhelming violence of action.

    4) Don't expect help from bystanders. I don't think any of us believe this. But even if that cab driver had a CCW, would he act to save your life? Would any of else help someone in this situation - we'd like to think we would do something. But like many have said, it isn't our job to clean up the streets, just to protect ourself and our families.

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