Am I legally required to wait?
This is a discussion on Am I legally required to wait? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Until I came to this site and a few others I thought that I was a bit crazy when I would envision a situation I ...
October 20th, 2006 10:16 AM
Am I legally required to wait?
Until I came to this site and a few others I thought that I was a bit crazy when I would envision a situation I might encounter, and "play it out" in my head. Then I met all of you guys and see that you are crazy too. My wife even started doing this, and hates me for it.
Anyway, I was on my way to get gas this morning before work. I had my XD in a paddle holster on my hip which I promptly lock away in my vehicle while at work. I decided that since in PA I am legal to open carry that I would pump my gas without disarming. I then remembered various post I have seen where the police were called on an individual, because someone got antsy about a man with a gun.
The question is, if I have somewhere I need to be, am I legally required to wait for the police, assuming the patron told me that he called them? I thought of just telling the guy that I was busy and then leave my business card with my cell number, and tell him that the officer can call me if he wishes. Would this be sure to land me on the most wanted list? Or would I be legal in leaving?
October 20th, 2006 10:27 AM
You are not legally required to wait, IMHO. You have not been arrested.
If the police show up at the location of the call, and the complainant tells them you have a gun, and you left in X direction in such and such a car with such and such a tag, there is a good chance they will be looking for you, and when they find you on the road, you will be on the receiving end of a felony traffic stop.
Then you get to enjoy being ordered out of the car and cuffed an gunpoint. Even though all will be resolved when they are done, you can bet they will treat you as a dangerous suspect until you are secured and they can check you out.
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
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October 20th, 2006 10:28 AM
If I knew the police were called because of me, I'd stick around. You're the good guy, and the last thing you want is for the cops to think you've fled, and pull you over and make you exit your vehicle and kiss pavement at gunpoint. They don't know you're a good guy; all they know is there's someone freaking out calling them about a man flashing a gun. Have your permit out ready to show and keep your hands where they can see them.
They could also very well catch up to you at where you needed to be, and cause a very embarassing situation for you on front of family, friends or co-workers, and possibly people you did not want to know you carry.
"Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
October 20th, 2006 10:30 AM
Another situation where open carry could at the least be a PITA.
I'm not a lawyer but my take on it would be ---> I'm doing nothing wrong. The guy is trying to take away my freedom/rights by demanding that I stay there. I'd probably ask him if he was prepared to make a citizens arrest,and if so would inform him that after all said and done would sue him for false arrest and/or,etc.,etc.,etc.
I would have no mercy on someone that tried this on me. Hey,if you're in the right ........then you're in the right.
We are stuck with the people that we have in our world,with the attitudes that they have ref. carring of weapons. Because of this fact I would say, NO OPEN CARRY!! Concealed only. --------
October 20th, 2006 10:30 AM
Very good points from all, especially that last part Betty.
October 20th, 2006 10:33 AM
Oh RSSZ, we were typing at the same time, thank you also for your input.
October 20th, 2006 10:44 AM
There is NO way I would wait around. Screw that. Just go about your business as you intended.
You broke NO law of ANY kind, so there is nothing to wait around for.
If for some reason police track you down for questioning on the basis of nothing other than a "tip" from a citizen who did NOT see you break any laws, you may have grounds for a law suit for harrassment.
But let's play the scenario out: The police arrive at the scene. You're gone, so the LEO asks the citizen about the complaint that they called in and the only thing the person could say is that they saw a person wearing a gun (not brandishing, and not "flashing".. just wearing "open carry").
No matter what the citizen might think, the LEO would realize that no laws were broken so they would tell the citizen "We'll check it out" as they head for breakfast at the nearest donut shop and not worry about you at all.
Bottom line is: don't put up with that crap.
October 20th, 2006 10:51 AM
If I actually knew someone was on the horn with police, I would instantly break out the cell phone, make a 911 call, and rapidly inform of the situation. NO WAY would I want to have armed response coming down on my head for unwarranted, irrational reasons. Who knows what spew that person has just passed along on the phone to the police, which might well get me killed. I would absolutely hang around, likely standing inside the store area with the minimart jockey (aka "manager") until the cavalry came to validate the misguided citizen's fears. NO WAY would I want to be actively heading away from what would quickly become an armed stop by cops who know one thing: I'm "fleeing after a run-in with a good-sam citizen.
Originally Posted by djturnz
Stop, correct the bad intel via direct action, await the cavalry if indeed they're coming, then help the officers to see the wisdom of educating the misguided soul. Better for him, them, me.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
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October 20th, 2006 10:52 AM
The goofy gray area in PA is that the police are required to respond to/investigate all Man w/ A Gun calls even though Open Carry is legal in PA.
So you can see how that creates somewhat of a legal P.I.T.A. ~ W.T.F.? conflict.
One real advantage of covering up in PA is that nobody gets to stick their nose into your personal business.
So if the person who "punched in" 911 on you also took your vehicle plate # & you have already left the location - then you can probably expect an impending vehicle stop with officers knowing in advance that you are armed - and acting accordingly - until they sort you out before letting you go on your merry way. I believe that there is always some minor risk to my person involved with that.
That seems to be just the way it is (for now) in Pennsylvania.
So either take those few seconds out to put on a fast "cover garment" or take whatever comes your way when you carry open.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
October 20th, 2006 10:53 AM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
Sad to say - concealed remains the trouble-avoiding option.
I pumped gas four years ago with my piece showing - and I was unaware until all finished and back in truck! I guess because I behaved so noncholant and normal no one called it in - not even the clerk in pay office!!
I learned from that tho to check my clothing much better on exiting my vehicle!
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
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October 20th, 2006 11:18 AM
In MA they also have to respond to all "man with gun" calls, so expect a felony stop!
A number of months ago, I stopped at a suburban gas station and noticed a guy across from me pumping gas, his holster was showing (the jacket only covered ~1/2 of the holster). As he left the station, I noticed the "Thin Blue Line" sticker on his truck! It was dark and nobody did or said anything . . . but you can't always count on that. His demeanor was such that I didn't care if he was LEO or a responsible citizen CCW'g (not very CCW), so no calls were made. If it were a soccer mom who freaked, the results could have been different.
I'd wait it out plus call 911 myself and ID myself to them.
Besides which if you want to sue the idiot who causes you the problem, you'll need his name and address . You won't get it unless both of you stick around to get that info. The cops aren't going to give it to you willingly that is for damn sure.
October 20th, 2006 11:26 AM
Anyone who is freaked-out enough by the sight of someone wearing a gun that they will call the police, will almost CERTAINLY be freaked-out enough to exaggerate what they saw. I suspect that at the very LEAST they are going to tell the police they saw you "flashing" a gun. They will most certainly NOT use the words "open carry." They may imagine--and tell the police--that you were threatening them and other customers. After all, they wouldn't be freaked-out and calling the police if they didn't feel at least a little threatened.
Originally Posted by CDH
You have done nothing wrong. That is absolutely true. But until they check it out the ONLY thing the police know is whatever they are told by someone who is afraid of guns and afraid of people who carry guns. I think it is very dangerous to assume that the police will immediately see through the paranoia of the caller and realize that you are just a law-abiding citizen exercising his right to carry a firearm.
Oh, and to answer the original question, are you LEGALLY REQUIRED to wait? No, of course not. That, however, is a very different question than, "would it be prudent for me to wait?"
October 20th, 2006 11:27 AM
As someone who OC's.... I think I would be a little less combative about someone calling 911. While yes, you are well within your rights - others obviously don't know that you are legal. It would be prudent, assuming you are not in a rush, for you to stay. Call the local police/sherrif/state police/dps non-emergency from your end and inform them of the situation.
I would advise anyone who considers OC to think long and hard before doing it. It will subject you to other people's opinions, ideas, and judgements. While CC may be the least trouble for anyone, OC is a whole different animal. I want you to imagine running into the biggest anti you know and what you would do? Or you see someone extremely shady who approaches you? What do you do? How do you react? It's a different world for OC.
One could probably accuse me of over-dramatcising. But do not OC unless you are willing to accept all of the resposiblities and troubles that will follow you. Even for two minutes.
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"It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008
October 20th, 2006 12:05 PM
Wow. All that from a guy in Arizona. A state that even lets DMX carry a gun.
Originally Posted by SixBravo
I know that concealed is concealed. I also understand that I have the right to OC if I want to. Normally I CCW, but for my commute to work, I do not. My manner of dress for work does not lend itself to concealing. I use a paddle holster so it is removable without undressing. I don't want to have to carry an extra shirt everywhere, just so I don't worry anyone, especially just to pump gas. I rarely use cash for gas anyway, so I would only be seen at the pump. I do like the idea of dialing 911 myself. Funny, no one has commented on my business card idea.
I wonder if a person did call 911, would they tell me?
There is the whole "stand up for your rights" aspect of OC, because it is my right and shouldn't need to be hidden. There is also the hassle of having to stand around and wait for the police. Especially in my town where it seems sometimes that the police are so bored that 2 or 3 cruisers will show up to a traffic stop. I guess there is a fine line between hiding my rights, and getting to work on time.
October 20th, 2006 01:01 PM
I've open carried. I personally didn't have any LEO encounters. Had some moms take their kids and go a different direction, but that's about all.
I know a fair few LEOs. They do have to respond to the man with a gun calls. Almost all the time this is handled professionally. You show them your ID they run you for wants and warrants and you are on your way. Most of the LEOs I know will go see the caller and give them a bit of a lecture about OC. However, there have been incidents where the folks legally OCing were cuffed and stuffed by overracting LEOs.
If I knew the person was on the phone to the police I would wait. If they told me they had called the police I would have an interesting conversation with them while we waited. I would under no circumstances identify myself to them or offer a business card, which would identify me to them and even worse give them an avenue to contact my employer and complain. Some of these "people" will find that the police will not give them the satisfaction of cuffing and stuffing you and they believe there should be consequences for you carrying a gun. So they will call your employer and tell whatever lies the feel they need to so that it costs you. They will get other people to do this as well. With the cops you have the law, with your employer you have...
Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.
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