Stopping Threats?

This is a discussion on Stopping Threats? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There is little doubt in what I would do. The bad guy has drawn a gun and has made a threat to inflict bodily harm ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
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    There is little doubt in what I would do. The bad guy has drawn a gun and has made a threat to inflict bodily harm and I would take the necessary action, to include deadly force, to remove/end the threat.

    Under the Florida "Castle Doctrine" the premises that are covered (abode only, or other places too), what degree of retreat or non-deadly resistance is required before deadly force can be used, etc.
    Typical conditions that apply to some Castle Doctrine laws:
    An intruder must be making (or have made) an attempt to unlawfully or forcibly enter an occupied residence, business or vehicle.

    The intruder must be acting unlawfully—for example, the Castle Doctrine does not give the right to use force against officers of the law acting in the course of their legal duties.

    The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe the intruder intends to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon an occupant of the home.

    The occupant(s) of the home must not have provoked or instigated an intrusion, or provoked or instigated an intruder to threaten or use deadly force.

    In all cases, the occupant(s) of the home must be there legally, must not be fugitives from the law or aiding or abetting another person in being a fugitive from the law, and must not use force upon an officer of the law performing a legal duty.

    IMO, the best part of the law is that it allows a person(victim) to stand his/her ground.
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  3. #17
    Member Array Jdunn217's Avatar
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    That is very true op(never witnessed a trial firsthand so I don't know what questions call for yes or no answers). I was just always told to word things in that light. Back to the subject, if I would be able to run out the door, I would to avoid the legal headache. If when I was told to back up, ended up deeper in the store, I'd get behind an isle, discretely draw and check my backdrop. If its clear and the bg is still waving the gun in the clerks face I'd squeeze off a couple of rounds at center mass because I would be in fear for my life at that moment. But like GetSmith stated above, you won't know what you'd do until the time comes. It's always good to keep these scenarios fresh in your mind though!

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    I have read much law concerning the legal justification for a armed citizen to use deadly force.
    I am also well aware of the legal quagmire if we ever have to use the final solution. With that said, I am curious how you all would handle this and what to expect from a legal point of view.

    Scenario: You are in line at the counter of a convenience store, maybe 2 or 3 back in line.
    In bursts a BG with a pistol. He points it at the clerk and demands money. He waves it at the customers and tells us all to get back.
    The customers as is natural all retreat somewhat...

    ...Legally; is this going to be a serious mess?
    As soon as the gun has been pointed at you, the threat of deadly force against you has been made, and you can seek the proper time to draw and fire. Depending on your state's laws, you would also be justified as soon as the gun was pointed at the clerk, or even as soon as it was clear that it was an armed robbery; gun pointed anywhere or not.

    Personally, after the gun was waved at the customers, I would get back as he demanded, so as not to become his focus. As soon as his attention was back on the clerk and not me, I would draw and fire.

    To avoid the potential, and probably arguments, no I would not call 911 first, (I'll call them after). If my family was with me, I would just make sure they stayed down, and preferably quietly moved somewhere out of view of the BG (it's a convenience store, so the aisles would probably make that easy). If it's only the one BG, and I fire when he's not looking, he's probably not going to have a chance to fire back. I wouldn't try to retreat first. As a GA resident I have no duty to retreat, and as a human being I definitely have no duty to retreat.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunn217 View Post
    That is very true op(never witnessed a trial firsthand so I don't know what questions call for yes or no answers). I was just always told to word things in that light. Back to the subject, if I would be able to run out the door, I would to avoid the legal headache. If when I was told to back up, ended up deeper in the store, I'd get behind an isle, discretely draw and check my backdrop. If its clear and the bg is still waving the gun in the clerks face I'd squeeze off a couple of rounds at center mass because I would be in fear for my life at that moment. But like GetSmith stated above, you won't know what you'd do until the time comes. It's always good to keep these scenarios fresh in your mind though!
    How do you know that when you try to run, he won't just shoot you? Hell, he might shoot everybody in there before he leaves just for the hell of it. I say make no attempt to run. Be on the offensive, not the defensive. Take him down.

    As far as a legal headache, I'd rather face a legal headache than not face anything ever again. Also, whether it becomes a legal case at all is often up to the on scene officers (this may not apply everywhere). If the cops can see (from witness accounts and what not) that you clearly acted in defense and did so legally, you might even make it home without every having to go downtown. You're probably not going to get arrested if you acted legally. The only legal headache you might face is getting on the witness stand if you didn't eliminate the threat well enough and have to speak at the trial.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GetSmith View Post
    In the heat of the moment you would not be worried about legalities. Once you unholster your weapon you have changed the game, for better or worse you have to live with the repercussions of your actions. Maybe the BG is startled by your gun and shoots someone. Maybe you miss your shot and take out an innocent.

    If I was in the scenario you described I would not feel compelled to protect anybody but myself. It's my duty to go home to my wife and kids at the end of the day. The store cleark should have had a pistol or shotgun behind the counter.

    Unless my families life is in direct danger I'm going to lie low and retreat if possible. If I wanted to strap on a gun to protect society I would have became a cop.
    Because Cops do such a good job at knowing exactly when and where crime happens and they can always be there to protect people as a crime happens, right? Or rather, is it they come when called, and in a situation of a smash and grab at a gas station the criminals are gone way before the cops show up? I won't let others be harmed when I can do something about it. Others' lives are just as important as my own.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
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  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    How do you know that when you try to run, he won't just shoot you? Hell, he might shoot everybody in there before he leaves just for the hell of it. I say make no attempt to run. Be on the offensive, not the defensive. Take him down.

    As far as a legal headache, I'd rather face a legal headache than not face anything ever again. Also, whether it becomes a legal case at all is often up to the on scene officers (this may not apply everywhere). If the cops can see (from witness accounts and what not) that you clearly acted in defense and did so legally, you might even make it home without every having to go downtown. You're probably not going to get arrested if you acted legally. The only legal headache you might face is getting on the witness stand if you didn't eliminate the threat well enough and have to speak at the trial.
    Your answer is pretty much spot on with how I would respond.
    Running out the door is not an option given this scenario.

    Other than home invasion; I'm pretty sure we are headed downtown for further questioning and statements.

    I do know this; I will not say a word other than "I'm happy to cooperate as soon as my attorney is here"
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

  8. #22
    Member Array Jdunn217's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    How do you know that when you try to run, he won't just shoot you? Hell, he might shoot everybody in there before he leaves just for the hell of it. I say make no attempt to run. Be on the offensive, not the defensive. Take him down.

    YMMV
    I guess this would be something that depends on the layout of the convenient store more that anything. If it's a single door store with the register 2 feet from the door, there's no running right by the bg. Time for offensive matters. If it was a double door gas station convenient store with one door clear across the store away from the bg and register, I doubt a ghetto thug holding his gun sideways would be able to hit a moving target that's sprinting. But don't get me wrong, I'd probably feel the need to stop the threat. Just saying if I had a clear escape I'd take it. I'm a chl holder not a cop.

  9. #23
    Member Array Jdunn217's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Running out the door is not an option given this scenario
    Well in that case I'd put three rounds into the bg! Lol

    Have y'all ever seen the criminal shows on tru tv? I've seen a countless number of unarmed people just walk(not run) out the door when they realize what's going on. It's not impossible to escape sometimes. This is another variable you won't know until it unfolds in front of you though.

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Have y'all ever seen the criminal shows on tru tv? I've seen a countless number of unarmed people just walk(not run) out the door when they realize what's going on.
    Rarely if ever will those type of TV programs show the viewer a death of a innocent.


    It's not impossible to escape sometimes. This is another variable you won't know until it unfolds in front of you though.
    Are the odds of that variable worth the possible result?..No matter how small the odds?

    For me to leave the store; walking or running out the door, the BG would have to throw his gun across the store, put his hands up and say "It's a toy gun"
    If that happened, I'd order him face down on the ground until LE arrived.
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Public scenarios I dont plan for as to specifically what I would do. Whatever seemed the best course of action depending on that encounter is the best I could do.
    Lot of things to decide very fast. Trying to read if hes actually going to shoot the clerk or just get the money and run?
    Is the clerk going to resist and escalate things? Can I get a sure shot to put him down or am I in a bad position bad angle etc where I could miss or graze and start a gun battle between myself and him that results in a blood bath of bystanders?
    A lot of things gotta be worked out in an instant before committing to action and none of them Id know until it actually happened.

    The reason if this makes sense to anybody that I dont plan for this type of stuff on specifics is I dont want to mindset myself to act on a certain set of conditions ive preset in my head that may or not be the actual case in reality.

  12. #26
    Member Array Jdunn217's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Rarely if ever will those type of TV programs show the viewer a death of a innocent.




    Are the odds of that variable worth the possible result?..No matter how small the odds?

    For me to leave the store; walking or running out the door, the BG would have to throw his gun across the store, put his hands up and say "It's a toy gun"
    If that happened, I'd order him face down on the ground until LE arrived.

    That is true, they never show the ones that end up bad. One thing you have to realize is you are still in a situation that could end up being potentially deadly no matter how you act. With concealed carry you have the very powerful element of surprise in your favor. But if the criminal does somehow see your weapon you just might have started a gun fight. It takes people what? 10 seconds or so to start fainting from lack of blood after they've been shot(depending on where they're hit of course) So even if you get the first shot off, you better be pulling that trigger fast and putting a tight grouping into the bg to increase your odds of survival!

  13. #27
    Member Array DannyB1954's Avatar
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    I am waiting for my CCW permit, so I recently took a class. I asked the instructor a what if scenario. Say you are in a mall and you are near a door when you see someone in the mall shooting people with a rifle. What do you do? The legal answer is you use the door. Everyone being shot at had the chance and right to take a CCW class and obtain a license. They chose not to. It is your job to protect you, not society. Once you start shooting, an armed guard or another CCW permit holder sees you and thinks that you are the bad guy. Are you going to return their fire? The moral answer is could you live with yourself if you could have gotten a good shot in and saved some lives but didn't? Hard question.

    I once read a book by Mother Terisa who was a nun who worked with the poor. She said that everyone had the daydream that they could be a hero and save someone from something terrible even if just once. But all the time we are daydreaming about the one time when we could do great good, we pass up opportunities to do some small good thing that would help someone. In the long run doing many small good things is a greater achievement than dreaming about the one time that may never come.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyB1954 View Post
    I am waiting for my CCW permit, so I recently took a class. I asked the instructor a what if scenario. Say you are in a mall and you are near a door when you see someone in the mall shooting people with a rifle. What do you do? The legal answer is you use the door. Everyone being shot at had the chance and right to take a CCW class and obtain a license. They chose not to. It is your job to protect you, not society. Once you start shooting, an armed guard or another CCW permit holder sees you and thinks that you are the bad guy. Are you going to return their fire? The moral answer is could you live with yourself if you could have gotten a good shot in and saved some lives but didn't? Hard question.
    The "legal answer" is a matter of state law. If your state expressly forbids taking down a shooter unless your life directly is on the line, then so be it, that's the legal answer. However, many states authorize the use of deadly force in defense of yourself, a third party, or even against someone who is committing a forcible felony. Active shooter in a mall gets you AT LEAST 2 out of those three.

    Suggesting that "everyone being shot at had the chance and right to take a CCW class and obtain a license" is first off, ridiculous. Not everybody can. You know who goes to malls? Teenagers. Teenagers can't carry a weapon. Maybe people that smoke a little weed years ago and got caught for it, and now their minor drug charge means they can't defend themselves. No, my friend, not everyone has the chance and right to take a CCW class. And suggesting that because they didn't some how means that they don't deserve protection, or it's their own fault if they die, is asinine. The age old excuse of "I'm not a cop" doesn't fly with me. Who the hell ever said that you have to be a cop to protect people? Who ever said only cops can stop criminals? It's ridiculous. That is why the law affords people the right and legal ability to defend themselves and others.
    godawgs82 likes this.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

  15. #29
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    #1 & 2 allow the BG to return for an encore performance on another day. #3 solves that problem but deepens your involvement beyond what it is already, a decision you have to make at that time.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  16. #30
    Member Array WarMachine's Avatar
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    If I'm alone (no family with me) I would take cover along with everybody else BUT my hand will be ready to draw my gun just in case the BG decides to leave no witnesses.

    If I'm their with some of my family I would get them and me behind cover in holster my weapon and shoot the BG because he mostly likely will try and hurt someone there and it won't be my family and I!

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