Stopping Threats?

This is a discussion on Stopping Threats? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by pittypat21 The age old excuse of "I'm not a cop" doesn't fly with me. Who the hell ever said that you have ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array Jdunn217's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    The age old excuse of "I'm not a cop" doesn't fly with me. Who the hell ever said that you have to be a cop to protect people? Who ever said only cops can stop criminals? It's ridiculous.
    I did not get my CHL to put on a super hero cape in the morning and stop criminals. It is there to protect MYSELF and loved ones, not to thwart every criminal that walks the on the face of the earth. So if the senario dictates a third party in peril, I will then use my discretion for that matter.
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  3. #32
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    Some states "allow" deadly force in defence of others, but none "require" it. Make you own decisions based on your experience and morals.
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    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunn217 View Post
    I did not get my CHL to put on a super hero cape in the morning and stop criminals. It is there to protect MYSELF and loved ones, not to thwart every criminal that walks the on the face of the earth. So if the senario dictates a third party in peril, I will then use my discretion for that matter.
    Cops aren't super heroes either, and no one expects you to be. But you are carrying a loaded weapon capable of taking down an active shooter/BG, and we would expect that if you are carrying it you would indeed know how to use it, and use it effectively. You are not a cop, but you have a one up on the cops: you are already there. you are at the scene of the crime. Why continue to let crime and evil happen when you can stop it?

    Maybe I just don't understand the selfish line of thinking that only me and mine matter.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
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  5. #34
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    It's the "Hey, as long as it's not me" thinking.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  6. #35
    Member Array Jdunn217's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    Cops aren't super heroes either, and no one expects you to be. But you are carrying a loaded weapon capable of taking down an active shooter/BG, and we would expect that if you are carrying it you would indeed know how to use it, and use it effectively. You are not a cop, but you have a one up on the cops: you are already there. you are at the scene of the crime. Why continue to let crime and evil happen when you can stop it?

    Maybe I just don't understand the selfish line of thinking that only me and mine matter.

    I am not thinking selfishly. I was also not originally talking about an active shooter, just a bg doing a stick up cash grab(the ones where the greater majority of the time no shots are fired). What are you going to do when your gun happy thinking insinuates a shoot out and the bg hits an innocent? The blood will be on your hands. Are you able to cope with that? A lot of **** can happen that you are not thinking about. You can do everything right in a gun fight and still end up in a body bag. We do have the element of surprise that is strong with cc, but situations can still go sour. Either way you act it is still a very potentially deadly situation. Don't get me wrong. My thinking is the more criminals that get shot, the less that are likely to break into your home and cause you harm later. So I do agree with your points and would probably act in such manner. I'm just trying to think about the entire spectrum of events that could unfold since this is just a brainstorming senario.

    And to answer your question why do I let evil happen? Because I can't control the presidential elections.
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  7. #36
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    If you decide to act, yes it will be a mess. No matter the outcome, you are in legal jeopardy. If no one is hurt, or you are not directly threatened with the gun- be a good witness. Take cover if possible. So many bad possibilities here.
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    I shoot with a pistol and a Canon. We must all hang together amigos, or we will all hang separately. NRA life member.

  8. #37
    Member Array GetSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnfat View Post
    If you decide to act, yes it will be a mess. No matter the outcome, you are in legal jeopardy. If no one is hurt, or you are not directly threatened with the gun- be a good witness. Take cover if possible. So many bad possibilities here.
    This is the voice of wisdom, not Internet bravado.

  9. #38
    Ex Member Array hartlathers's Avatar
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    I'll try to be the best witness for the police I can be. The threat has to be against my loved ones or me. Given the senario you described, I'll be at the ready, but taking overt action is probably escalating a situation that otherwise would have been a simple robbery. Don't give Piers Morgan more fuel for his little fire.
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    I have read much law concerning the legal justification for a armed citizen to use deadly force.
    I am also well aware of the legal quagmire if we ever have to use the final solution. With that said, I am curious how you all would handle this and what to expect from a legal point of view.

    Scenario: You are in line at the counter of a convenience store, maybe 2 or 3 back in line.
    In bursts a BG with a pistol. He points it at the clerk and demands money. He waves it at the customers and tells us all to get back.
    The customers as is natural all retreat somewhat.

    I see a few choices for me the armed citizen.

    1) Comply and hope he just leaves w/o incident.
    2) Wait and see how the robbery develops.
    3) End the threat.

    Personally I have real issues with 1 & 2.

    1) Compliance is never a insurance policy that the criminal element won't injure me.
    2) Waiting for the dynamics to develop seems to put the advantage in the BG's court.

    IMO; because the criminal mind in the midst of a violent criminal act does not even consider giving the victim any advantage whatsoever;
    I am of the ilk and mindset to quietly unholster my gun and terminate the threat.

    If more info is needed to answer the scenario, I will be happy to provide, but I think we get the idea.

    Legally; is this going to be a serious mess?
    If you already have your cc permit, then you already know the answer to the question you asked.

    So what is your real reason for this post? What exactly are you looking for?
    Fortune favors the bold.

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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GetSmith View Post
    This is the voice of wisdom, not Internet bravado.
    It's a shame that when someone's opinion is not to run and hide he is accused of "internet bravado".

    That is the last thing it is.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
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    I could not just take cover if I was armed and let the bad guy take the clerks life. I believe that would be harder to live with then taking the bad guys life. I would always remember that I had the means but not the courage. There is an opportunity cost for everything we do in life and the opportunity cost for me to save another persons life would be very small in my opinion.
    US Army 1953-1977

    ‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’
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  13. #42
    Member Array GetSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    It's a shame that when someone's opinion is not to run and hide he is accused of "internet bravado".

    That is the last thing it is.
    I did'nt mean any ofense. If you actually have the training and experiance to deal with a situation like that your a good man. Most people on this board and probably over 90% of those that carry don't. All I'm saying is your actions can cause reactions that escalate the situation and might cause death that might not have otherwise happened.

    Your bullet could hit a single mother or you gun could scare the BG and cause his gun to blow the head of the cleark off.

    I'm not saying I would necessarily do nothing but my first move isn't going to be going for my gun. I'm going to access the situation and use my weapon as a last resort if a life is in danger.

    With all the training police have in the heat of the moment even thier choices turn bad. If that happens to them it's part of the job and they have a city and union representing them. If things go bad for a civilian you could cost your family everything they have become accustom to. Just because you can pull your gun doesnt mean you have to or should.
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  14. #43
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    Coulda-shoulda-woulda applies in any situation, "loved ones" or not. If liabilities are your primary concern when carrying, maybe that needs a rethink.

    If I can feel I have good odds of stopping it, I probably will. If I don't feel the odds are worth the risk, I probably won't. I say "probably" becuase I am not in that situation, and no one knows for sure what their reaction will be until in that situation. You only know what you think you'll do. Reality changes things in a hurry.
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    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    I have found my stance on this issue evolving of late. I used to hold the view that I would stay out of the fight as long as I am not in imminent danger. That is no longer my position. I will of course use SA as my first line of defense, and I will search for cover. But I am no longer willing to just stand by and let innocent people be murdered while simply protecting myself and mine. If I find myself in an active shooter situation and I am in a position to take out the threat, I will do so. Enough is enough.

    Edit: I cannot stress enough the amount of soul searching I have done recently on this issue. This was not a decision reached without some degree of anguish. I have felt, and still feel that I have an obligation to come home to my wife safely. However, I have to put myself in the shoes of those who are being killed. How can I just stand by and let that happen? The answer for me is, I can't.

    And one thing to remember is that if a BG shoots someone, anyone, this is now an active shooter situation. It matters not if one person is shot, or 10, or 20. He (or she) needs to be stopped before any more damage can be done.
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  16. #45
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    In his scenario no one was murdered or shot. For all we know the gun might not have even been real. If the scenario was the BG ran in and began shooting, it's game on. No hesitation.
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    I shoot with a pistol and a Canon. We must all hang together amigos, or we will all hang separately. NRA life member.

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