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Right To Shoot??

5K views 60 replies 37 participants last post by  Snub44 
#1 ·
The Scenario: A woman is being attacked in a public parking lot. You pull your gun to stop the attack. You have the perp on the ground at gun point and are waiting for the police to arrive. The perp gets up and starts to run away to evade arrest. Do you shoot?
 
#2 ·
No... but might have shot him before he was up enough to run. If he is getting to his feet I am now in fear for my or the womans life. If he makes it to his feet and is running away, I have nothing to fear.
 
#4 ·
Short answer: in the situation you've described, IMO it's probably best to let the fleeing perp flee.

You've stopped an apparent felony assault and battery, but the alleged perp gets up and runs away. Well, at that point, it's hard to state the guy is a threat to you or the victim. At most, it can be claimed he's a potential threat to others. But particularly in a situation in which no actual physical harm (beyond a bit of roughing up) was witnessed, and no deadly weapon has been seen, then it's also tough to claim he'd be such a violent threat to the point that the only way to stop that threat would be to shoot. That's the sort of situation where forcible citizens' arrest situations get ugly, fast. Caution, if you want to go there.

For my money, given the risks when there isn't blood and/or a body as proof of manifest intent to kill, I find it hard to kill a fleeing person who's only crime was to have been witnessed assaulting another. If that person opts to flee at that moment, then I'm pretty sure I am going to let him do so. Daring the county DA and GJ to charge me doesn't seem like a good bet, in such circumstances, at least not until we get a whole lot further down the path to sane and rational support of citizens who are armed and act on behalf of others ... reliably so. Until then, if he chooses to flee, he gets a temporary pass ... at least until the 911 call brings police down around his ears in a few minutes; during which time, I might well tail him in my car (depending).

Now, if the perp was actually witnessed by me committing some egregious violence that couldn't be easily ignored (to the point there was a clear attempt to kill/rob/rape and either blood or a body), then everything changes quickly. That's when the choice of evils argument begins to hold much more water, in the case of deciding to put the guy down as he strives to rise (given the extreme risk he's manifesting intent to continue the fight/threat). Thin ice, in such situations, and you'd best be damned sure you're right. Else you could be spending some time in the clink wondering how you're going to pay for the charges being leveled against you, at least if you're in a county where you're in the least doubt about how it would play out.

Your call. All things considered, it's probably best in all but the most-violent and first-hand-witnessed cases to let a fleeing perp go.

Generally speaking, the A.O.J. principles guide me. Specifically, the state statutes where I am do so as well. If there's no real Ability of the person to harm me, and no real Opportunity for him to do so (since he's fleeing, back to me, and apparently without a weapon), it gets hard to claim there's any actual Jeopardy to me at that moment. Hard, as in hugely expensive to me if I judge incorrectly. Those "reasonable man" elements in the statutes have teeth, all things considered, and here's a good situation where those teeth can be very sharp.

That being said, you're in Texas. Things tend to be a bit different there with respect to accepting the concept of stopping crime. Particularly if at night, you're going to have a whole truckload of support behind you, even though any shooting's going to go through the GJ. (ie, the case involving Joe Horn, a couple years ago.)
 
#9 ·
Hi I'm Brad. This is my brother Brad and my other brother Brad.

In response to the original post: no way. At that point it's just time to be a good witness and to be able to witness on behalf of good gun owners everywhere that don't shoot when they don't have to.
 
#10 ·
Don't shoot. The threat has been eliminated, when you broke it up. If you shoot him because he's running away, you've just put yourself behind bars for awhile. Be smart, don't shoot.
 
#12 ·
Don't shoot. If he's running away, he is no longer a threat to you (or the woman), and therefore would be considered a victim and you the perpetrator.

Hopefully one of have the police on the phone so that you can let them know where he's running.
 
#13 ·
Here is your answer in Texas.

PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
It says nothing about chasing one down, or shooting them after the attack has ceased. I think you would be in pretty hot water if you shot them while fleeing after the attack was stopped and they had submitted for a period of time.

This might very well be a good time to have a less than lethal option available to use if they did attempt to flee.
 
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#14 ·
Stated this several times in threads. If this is in daytime, you do not shoot--it is called murder. In South Carolina, however, if this is occurring at night, Section 17-13-20 of the SC Code of Laws allows you to affect a citizen's arrest, because the BG has or you have just suspicion of a felony by the BG, by "efficient means as the darkness and the probablilty of escape render necessary, even if the life of the person should be taken". In other words, he tries to escape you can shoot him to stop him--period/end of story. Case law has validated this action and it is on the books for better or for worse. Don't be a BG in SC at night.
 
#52 ·
Not sure if your question is rhetorical for theater or actual, but kindly read my Reply #14. In SC, AT NIGHT and under current SC law, you have every right to shoot the BG in the back and kill him if he gets up and tries to run away. He has attempted to evade your citizens arrest, which, AT NIGHT, actually means something in SC and is not just some pretty words on a piece of paper. I do agree that this is extreme if it is over a few belongings and is not a question of "threat of imminent danger of death or great bodily injury", which is my basis for using a firearm, but it is the law and has been tested and validated in SC. Not sure of the circumstances and timing for passage of such a draconian-type law, but it is on the books.
 
#19 ·
Consider that for a moment. You have no legal authority to do anything to him. He's not your prisoner and you have no lawful ability to detain him. You're going to take his wallet at gunpoint... If his attorney is better than yours, you'll be facing armed robbery charges.

I guess the definition of "attack" leads to some circumstantial differences too. If the "attack" just killed someone, then yeah, you could tie his butt up and sit on him if need be. If the "attack" was a purse snatch, then it may not be such a good idea legally to try anything beyond getting the guy to flee.
 
#18 ·
What if his wallet contains false ID? But what if, what if, what if?
 
#22 ·
Not enough information. How do you know it's not a lovers spat. How do you know it's not some kinky role play. How do you know that the woman didn't just steal the guys wallet and he's trying to retain her for the police. How do you know that she isn't attacking him. It's just not that simple, and you are never justified shooting a suspect that is fleeing.
 
#23 ·
I'm not going to shoot someone unless my life is threatened. Doesn't matter if I have the "right to" or not. That's what separates us from the scumbags we carry to defend ourselves from.
 
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#25 ·
Other Guys have already given the answers I would have...

You can shoot someone for running away
If you take something from someone under the duress of a firearm... that is armed robbery.
Just because someone is struggling with a woman dont mean he's breaking the law, or attacking the women. It's quite common for a woman victim to turn on her supposed saviour in favor of her man whi hits her once in a while because he loves her.

And I thank Sixto for the enlightened statement... Just because you can shoot someone dont mean you always should shoot...
 
#26 ·
Not a lawyer nor suggest that anyone do this and it isnt the orginal post I dont think since attack could be anything from baeting to rape to attempted murder.
Rape is a felony and catching a person in process of committing it would I think give you cause and right to shoot the fleeing suspect. As would murder if you witnessed it occur. Not that I would recommend it or know all states regs on it only speaking from my own state.
 
#28 ·
Most states only recognize the justification for deadly force to defend against someone's unlawful use of deadly force. Texas allows a bit more leeway in those things, but all in all, if all they are doing is fleeing the scene, let them run and let 911 know their direction of travel and clothing description.

And before you shoot in the original scenario, beware that the woman lie to police or may actually attack you for "intervening" with her boyfriend or husband during an "Argument."

I had a friend in the Sheriff's Department that was cracked over the head with a beer bottle by the woman he was defending from being punched unconscious by a man at a club, who also just happened to be her boyfriend. Ended up he arrested them both, but she was mad because, "They were just arguing" and her meal ticket was being arrested.
 
#29 ·
Here is a good example for you. Happened in RI not to long ago. Two neighbors got into an arguement. Fire fighter and police officer. Both off duty. Fire fighter goes to neighbors house, arguement ensues inside of police officers house. Fist fight breaks out, fire fighter assaults police officer and then begins to leave the house. Police officer shoots fire fighter in the back as he was leaving and kills him. Police officer got into deep doodoo. Sorry for the quick rundown but you get my point.
 
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