ACTION vs REACTION Live Fire Video Demo - Stunning Results - Page 2

ACTION vs REACTION Live Fire Video Demo - Stunning Results

This is a discussion on ACTION vs REACTION Live Fire Video Demo - Stunning Results within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Reinforces the whole "Get off the X" response......

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Thread: ACTION vs REACTION Live Fire Video Demo - Stunning Results

  1. #16
    Member Array 1911srule's Avatar
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    Reinforces the whole "Get off the X" response...
    paramedic70002 likes this.
    RIP Jeff Cooper


  2. #17
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    You're very welcome AZ_Larz_NY, same here, every time I learn something new I realize just how little I know.

    Austin, thanks for the thoughtful reply. By the way I took my video editor frame by frame selecting the time when my right arm muscles begin to move to the point the empty casing is flying about 6 inches above the gun. I figure from the time the bad guy is sitting still with the gun hidden until the bullet is flying you get to see the best case scenario. I totally agree with everything you said and all is good :)

    This is also a comment on this video by an LEO that posts on the GeorgiaPacking website that may be interesting for others to read from first hand experience....
    Quote Originally Posted by MGD45
    I learned this lesson the hard way on duty back in 2004 in Perry.....I had my gun out, in the "low ready" position with my finger on the slide of my G22......

    I lost the gunfight that day.....but survived. My buddies put plenty of lead in the shooter & he survived too....

    It's a heck of a lesson to learn in real life & not during training...... :(
    aus71383 likes this.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Please rethink this and come back around to comment
    .

    OK..I did.
    I also read and re-read your technique when a BG draws on you. I won't comment on that.

    I've studied martial arts for 30 years, have been a instructor and judge at countless tournaments and currently hold a 6th degree BB in Shotokan Karate, a 4th degree BB in Korean TKD and a 1st degree BB in Brazilian JujitSu (Machado Schools)...Not bragging, just wanted you to know my qualifications and credibility in understanding threat assessments.

    I understand your demo showing that action beats re-action; though I know that assumption is based purely on a rather strict set of circumstances; many of which are completely out of the defenders hands.

    Now (IF) my way of thinking runs counter to yours, other than a gun scenario being completely different from a hand to hand physical confrontation...I don't believe it is other than the finality of a a bullet leaving the weapon; (i.e) Little if rarely a measured response compared to a hand to hand confrontation.

    I've heard and believe; others say that if the BG has the drop on me, I'm probably a goner. Again; this would be based on a specific set of parameters including
    my SA before, my SA during, and my assessment of a mode of action I will take.

    At this point in this particular discussion, I must force myself to separate my skills from the average citizen and I too must make some assumptions.

    1) The average citizen is not expert in their use of a firearm.
    2) "" " " " in hand to hand combat.

    In your video in the first paragraph you must only be referring to guns as it does not apply to defensive hand to hand when a trained defender is fighting off a untrained attacker.

    I've trained countless LE officers in martial arts, primarily pain compliance techniques AND gun takeaway techniques; the latter requiring continual practice and not simply something one learns and then hopes they remember later.

    Trying to react to an intentional action already in motion is physically impossible even for superman.
    If you are referring to a gun being drawn on me; that statement is totally bogus and without merit or proof.
    If you are referring to a bullet that has already left the weapon and headed my way; then I agree.
    Defemsive techniques often will turn the tide of battle (IF) the defender is skilled.

    Seriously, I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but what is it you suggest other than (SA) when a threat is thrust upon us?

    As someone previously stated, I can't walk around all day in a max alert status without going bonkers.

    I get it. I can't out draw someone who has the drop on me when their only intent is to shoot me w/o thought. No argument. My response is still; OK..so precisely what does this do for me?

    Every encounter is dynamic, changing from moment to moment; no different than a hand to hand struggle.
    Every move has or should have a counter move.
    Every situation must be assessed moment to moment.
    Decision points move continuously along a rapidly sliding scale.

    The math of reaction vs action is interesting though not surprising.

    So yes; from your prior post..It may require you or someone else to do a paragraph or two to explain to me HOW this information should be pressed into service other than realizing I should not attempt to outdraw a BG if they have me in their sights unless I'm Bob Munden?
    Moving while shooting? I get it. Hopefully we all get it.
    Element of surprise? I get it.
    Don't engage if they get the drop on me? Depends on the dynamics.

    EDIT: RT = a + b log2N

    where a and b are constants and N is the number of alternatives. The equation has two terms. The "a" constant is simply the "irreducible minimum" reaction time in the situation. (The variable part is called "the reducible margin.") The relationship between RT and the number of alternatives is nonlinear - doubling the number of alternatives does not increase RT by a factor of 2 but rather by the log of the number of possible signals.
    Believe me..this equation is taught to our higher level of martial artists...boiled down it is called (DYNAMICS)
    aus71383 and KBSR like this.
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  4. #19
    Member Array GeorgiaShooter's Avatar
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    rightseroding, yes sorry I should have defined the superman comment. I think where we went off track we're your comments about this stuff not apply to every day life and the idea we would never use the low ready gun position which is just not true. And what I struggled to say was how the video really was not focused on that point anyway. It was more about reacting with equal people, equal weapons and assuming your reaction, with practice and skill, could overcome even the average bad guy who had the jump on you. At that level we don't even need to use formulas to understad it would be a fatal mistake to respond in a way the vast majority of TV and movie watching citizens believe is the right response.

    As I posted previously, even a police officer learned that lesson the hard way. And frankly if a bad guy with some skill has enough distance on you with low light and the surprise you too would be SOL, no matter how much you train. I think the point for me is just focusing on what the video actually shows. Nothing in the video is incorrect as far as I know, and where you build on that, or develop and train is really a choice. Some people are limited by age, health, aptitude and in many cases just don't have time to make hand to hand combat their life's study. I believe we're on the same page here frankly but you are just coming from another angle, and that's fine. You are not limited to the same choices I am.

    Frankly one of the responses I might use is just running like hell and trying to use cover. It's very hard to shoot a moving target in the dark. One thing I bring away from this is that some things just wont work and I need to understand that. One of the best ways to survive is not making a huge mistake. Thanks again for the comments, I think your second post was a lot more helpful. Take care.
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  5. #20
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    It was more about reacting with equal people, equal weapons and assuming your reaction, with practice and skill, could overcome even the average bad guy who had the jump on you.
    Cool!..Now with that I fully agree.
    GeorgiaShooter likes this.
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  6. #21
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    "The Second move I really love is the one in Massad's book and based again on real life by people that have used it many many times with success."

    That's assuming one can.
    GeorgiaShooter likes this.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911srule View Post
    Reinforces the whole "Get off the X" response...
    This.

    And don't let your shot timer go off during a traffic stop.
    Secret Spuk likes this.
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  8. #23
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    Georgia Shooter,

    Thank you for the vid. It adequately illustrates the point. We should all know this. Action beats reaction, period.

    With a static target, the BG will get off a shot with a greater probability of lethality, than the static target will be able to draw and fire his weapon. That you have proven with little doubt.

    Rights Eroding also has some valid points. However at my age, I don't have the time to become an advanced ninja warrior.

    So what's the answer for the average citizen?

    I believe that Rights Eroding has hit on it rather succinctly with his algorithm (RT = a + b log2N).
    1911s Rule has put it in layman's terms. "Get off the X"

    Any movement on the part of the static target reduces the probability that the BG will have a lethal shot.

    No one has mentioned mindset (a term I dislike, but it's so common and easy to use). The likelihood of dying from a gunshot has gotten considerably smaller over time...

    Gabby Giffords was shot at near point blank range, in the head, with a Glock 9mm. She survived. We can argue that if she had been shot with a .45, her entire head would have been blown off and several other people would have been knocked to the ground from the blast... but that's a topic for another forum with different rules. The fact remains, she survived. And the likelihood is that you will too, if you get shot (maybe even with a .45).

    Even the officer that commented on his encounter and his learning the lesson of Action V Reaction is testament to that fact. He was shot once, the perp was shot many times, both survived.

    There are civilian cases of the same thing, the most famous probably being Lance Thomas. Everybody in our community has seen the video (but if someone hasn't here's the link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w) Lance has been shot many times... he has drawn against the drop without fancy ninja moves, and against multiple gunmen, several times.

    So, you can survive a gunfight. That isn't a matter of mindset or belief, it is FACT. So you don't need to have a strong will to survive, you probably will unless you simply lay down and die, or let the BG continue to make certain you are dead.

    So, here are my takeaways from this video:

    You only have to be willing to take the fight to the BG. Even the dead man has his "10 seconds."

    Any movement on your part will reduce the odds of a lethal shot from the BG. And give you opportunity to return his favor. And then, he must react to you, changing the algorithm.

    It ain't over, 'til it's over.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Reaction has never beaten action.
    Never say never.

    It has happened, very rare, but it has happened, it got Ed Cantrell an acquittal. At Ed Cantrell's trial, Bill Jordan had a deputy aim a cocked Colt SAA 45 at him, he drew and fired his own gun (loaded with blanks) before the deputy could react.

    Thus, the media frenzy continued. Spence called as his last witness, a former border patrolman, National Rifle Association shootist, and author of the book No Second Place Winner, Bill Jordan. Spence received permission for a court room demonstration. A gun was loaded with blanks and a young deputy was told to point the gun at Jordan and if Jordan made any move towards his gun to pull the trigger. All of a sudden a shot was fired in the courtroom. The deputy stood there chagrinned, the deputy's weapon still unfired. Jordan testified that the normal human reaction time is 1/2 second, but he, Jordan, had trained himself to draw and fire in 0.27 seconds, less than half the time for someone else merely to recognize that an opponent is going for his gun.

    "Q. And what about Sheriff Cantrell?"

    "Ed? Well, I reckon he's a mite bit faster'n me."
    Snub44 likes this.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaShooter View Post
    I always wanted to test this theory based on several scientific studies on police shootings. Mainly officers being killed during traffic stops. If you ever see cop standing behind you with their hand on their gun. Well, cut them some slack. Even if they are expecting a criminal may shoot at them. They are still at an amazing disadvantage due to the natural reaction times for our brains, nervous systems to detect, think and react which is 3-4 times slower than some aggressor getting the slight jump on you with intentional action. For average citizens and permit holders we should be aware of this. There is training on how to avoid, use situational awareness, detect people who are about to attack and how to change the dynamic situation back to your favor with some kind of action BEFORE you even think about trying to out-draw someone like the wild west. Which will get you killed in real life. This video should make a lot of pros just nod their heads and say, YEP, been there, done that, got the T shirt, but for many over confident gun owners that watch too much TV and have a false perception of their skill this may be a real wake up call. I was amazed how my test so closely matched the studies I have read. I was just not ready for how STUNNED watching the video in replay would be. I had to wait until I came home to see my simulation of the criminal shooting an officer from the drivers seat. When I measured the time with the computer it kinda made me sick at my stomach. My son's childhood buddy is not a grown man, and a cop in our town and I'd always wanted my son to follow that path due to his aptitude and demeanor. Now, I'm glad he went from being a smart jock to a tax accountant. If you ever thought a cop's job was easy, well, data like this might change your mind. This is still a good lesson even walking on the street.

    PLEASE add your comments, thoughts and experiences for others to learn from. Obviously situational awareness, positioning, avoidance should be discussed to get at some real solutions besides our first instincts which might cause a permit holder to have a bad day.

    VIDEO LINK - length under 2 minutes
    Action vs Reaction - Proxy beats Skill - Live Fire Video Demo - YouTube
    Nicely done, thank you.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    This.

    And don't let your shot timer go off during a traffic stop.
    *****!!! Thanks for the laugh.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    But on to serious business.

    The vid demonstrates that the first one to shoot usually wins. I said usually. Well not even usually. Had that been a real bad guy, and a real officer with half a brain, and minimum training it would turn out differently. The missing component here is tactics. An officer doing the car stop will probably wait for another unit. Even when doing one solo the police employ tactics to avoid being on that "X". Without going to a lot, one tactic is to stand next to or behind the the back of the drivers side door. It's hard to shoot someone standing next to you when he's standing behind you. Can it be done? Sure it can... But It's not likely. The officer would want to make the subject contort his body in order to become a threat. That pretty much evens things up. Another issue is the subject already had his gun in his hand. Could that happen?.. absoloutly. Is it likely?.. not really. When an officer approaches a car... even for a routine traffic stop they will make observations. One things the police like to see is two hands. Lastly the vid has only one kind of reaction. Draw and fire. I dont know about anyone else.. but if I get shot at... My first reaction is to put time, space, and big hard things between me and the shooter.

    So it's a nice vidio. Definately makes one think. Maybe time to adjust the tactics of business as usual.

  13. #28
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    I went to a weapons training class at Camp Pendleton prior to my taking a south east Asian vacation. The instructor was five foot nothing and could run backwards faster than I could run forward and I was in shape and competing in cross country events.
    The explanation went like this if I remember correctly. Martial arts people and specially trained people can shorten reaction time. The average person who does not train constantly has a reaction time of 3/4 of a second. This is the time the eye sees the danger, the brain gets the message and sends an electrical impulse down the nerve highway and the hand arm and finger react by firing a round. This was demonstrated over and over the instructor had a magic marker and he would stand 20 feet away. We would grip our pistol in the holster and at the sight of the instructor moving we were to react and fire a round. The instructor traveled that 20 feet and put two xs on my chest before I cleared the leather. Now our ROE was a lot different than todays self defense. When clearing a structure we would start to shoot as we went around a corner and then stop ourselves if no threat appeared shortening our time to around 1/2 second.

    When a person has no moral terpitude and does not value human life it is very difficult to beat them. Now the will to fight on can get you the opportunity to take them with you. Not a lot but something that keeps me warm on cold nights.

  14. #29
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    ...do you ever get them talking while covering you to see how much time it takes to stop talking and squeeze one off?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I run my demos with a visual cue. With my pistol at my side and theirs pointed at me, ready to fire, they are to pull the trigger as soon as my gun hand moves.
    Secret Spuk likes this.

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