October 24th, 2006 02:14 AM
An interesting broad daylight situation I had.
This is certainly not an experience I would have expected to have in broad daylight.....In front of a sporting goods store of all places! This story happened a while ago--last spring, but that shoulden't matter too much.
I was at work, when I got a call from my buddy letting me know he'd just picked up a new kahr .40 from Sportsman's Warehouse. I said "sweet, I'll be down there in 5 mins to check it out." (Nothing at work was more important then checking out a new firearm). It was chilly, and I was OWB carrying my ruger p89 with a jacket over it. I met with my buddy, his roomate who was with him, and we stood there and shot the breeze for a while and talked about guns. We were parked towards the back of the lot and I noticed a black buick, with limo tint windows driving around. It was not anything to be concerned about other than the fact that it was very much out of place with every other car being a lifted truck. Eventually the Buick begins creeping by us. I raised up a little bit in alertness, and scooted a bit towards the back of my jeep. Still not really concerned, but preparing myself to take evasive action. My friends took notice and I casually glanced towards the Buick but didn't slow up the conversation any. The car finally stopped in front of us, and the window rolled down. A young black gentleman was in the car alone, and asked us if we'd like to buy a bottle of jack danials. We declined and politely requested that he move along. What he did really shocked me. He simply let loose with a string of cuss words, then ducked down and put his hands below my eyesight. This put me on full alert and I quickly moved behind my jeep and put my hand on my gun. Luckily, the man came up empty handed and simply drove away.
After he was gone, my one friend said, "Why'd you run like that?" I responed that I couldent see the guys hands, and after the cursing he just gave us, I had no idea what to expect.
Then it occured to me, that I had acted in the interests of my own safety with little regard to my friends'. This disappointed me a bit, as I had always assumed I would act in the best interests of whoever I was with. When I reflect on it now, I admit that I would probably do the same thing. The threat went from being "not there" to "there" so quick that I didn't have time to issue instructions or advise. I simply provided for my own safety as quickly as possible. I later told my friends, "Guys, I love ya to death, but you gotta pay attention to what's going on, and be prepared to react. I'll do my best to help you, but when it comes down to the line, I'm looking out for myself first."
That's the first time in my life I've been in a situation where another individual has really made me fear for my safety. I feel confident in what I did, but also guilty that I left my buddies standing there with their mouth's open getting cursed at.
He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day
October 24th, 2006 02:57 AM
Nice display of alertness there kairo
This brings up some interesting issues. I haven't been around here long, but in reading the archives, tactical discussions seem to assume only three types of people: bad guys, loved ones, and innocent strangers. However, as your experience shows that the loved one/stranger categories aren't really all that clear cut. What do you do when facing a (potentially) lethal threat directed towards people you know and like, but who you would not necessarily be willing to lay down your life for?
Obviously this depends a lot on the situation, but can you really take a "little bit" of risk to help someone in a lethal confrontation? Will a less than full bore attempt to help them just make things worse or get me killed? I don't know. If things go badly they (or I) won't just end up a little bit dead.
October 24th, 2006 03:46 AM
Don't know if I'd have done the same thing. It's not that you don't want to watch out for my friends, but they have to take the responsibility for themselves too.
USN 78-82/USAF 82-93 Medically Retired
Desert Shield/Desert Storm
DAV Life Member
NRA Life Member
October 24th, 2006 04:26 AM
It makes you wonder this question. As in lifegaurding you learn to put the victim inbetween you and an object that can hurt you. You do this because if you get hurt than you are no use and you are both in trouble then. Do you think an altered type of response would be a good idea. You take cover and if you have time to tell your friends to get down you do. If you get shot are you really any good to your friends then.
October 24th, 2006 07:00 AM
Being shot for a Friend cause they do not take cover would be foolish. If possible, warning them would be good.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
October 24th, 2006 07:07 AM
IMHO, you did act in both your own interest and theirs.
Originally Posted by kairo
You were the only one who reacted to the threat. I don't know if your friends were carrying or not, but they were plainly not prepared to react.
By moving to cover and preparing to engage, you put yourself in a position to neutralize the threat if your subject has gone from cussing to attacking.
With your friends caught flat-footed and in condition white, the only thing that would have helped them if the feces had hit the oscillating air impeller would have been rapid neutralization of the assailant. You moved to do that, if it had been needed.
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
October 24th, 2006 07:38 AM
I wouldn't try to second guess your ingrained instinctive fight or flight reaction to an immediate perceived deadly threat and remove yourself from a possible direct line of fire.
You need to save your own arse before you can use it to save other arses.
The Paternal & LOVE bond is every bit as powerful as the "Fight Or Flight" and if you had your Wife & Kids right alongside you...then I'm guessing your instantaneous reaction would have been markedly different.
Really not enough detailed specific info provided to qualify me to judge your exact reaction.
Just glad that all worked out OK for you and your friends
October 24th, 2006 08:44 AM
First-responder's credo: can't leverage what you don't have. If you cannot first ensure you'll retain the ability to breath, stand, move, then you'll quickly be unable to assist anyone, despite extreme urgency to do so. This goes for getting a mask in a smoky fire, for gaining cover and a weapon in times of attack, for keeping your head while others are losing theirs. Kudos on the right decision.
Originally Posted by kairo
Your friends are adults and are responsible for their own skins on-the-instant. Just the way it is. They should realize this. I think you do.
Presumably, the friends are not merely sheep but do understand about threat management. They should understand this and what it means, in practice, on the street, on the instant of an encounter whose speed/direction is not under initial control. It means, that for the first few moments of any encounter like that, they're on their own ... hence, each needs to be aware, consider ramifications, consider cover, be armed/able to defend, etc.
BTW, reporting license plates to the police often works to help cleanse the daylight of such things. In a few instances, merely passing along a strong description (incl. plate) has resulted in a stop, questioning and, in a couple of instances, taking the perps to jail. Though, this was hardly first on the agenda.
Last edited by ccw9mm; October 24th, 2006 at 08:52 AM.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
October 24th, 2006 08:47 AM
Sounds like there wasn't much time to really think about it. Sounds like you did just fine. You reacted as best you could in the time you had, and you didn't over react. I wouldn't worry about it. We all learn things the wrong/hard way. I'll bet if something similar ever happens again, you will probably react with the benefit of this experience.
BTW, since we haven't been properly introduced yet.
I am Bryan from Ky.
Welcome to combat carry.
October 24th, 2006 10:21 AM
This is a thought-provoking thread. I don't have any brilliant, original (or even very helpful) suggestions.
The situation and this thread are instructive for at least a couple of points: 1) real life situations happen fast; 2) real life situations are unpredictable.
I'm thinking it goes to show that you should tailor your training to what you're most likely to do. Some people translate roughly the same principle into "large muscle vs. fine motor skills", or whatever.
What will you do when you go into survival mode and you get tunnel vision, etc.?
How can you harness what your reactions will be in such a way as to maximize your ability to live through the situation?
Occurences like the one Kairo describes are unpleasant, but they are astronomically valuable aids if we mine them for nuggets of usefulness. They give us the ability to extract our likely responses and plan accordingly.
I don't think you did anything wrong, Kairo. People react different ways to different situations. What would be wrong would be to simply ignore or forget the incident and not try to use it as a training aid. It would be worse yet to intentionally train in such a way as to not take into account your reactions.
October 24th, 2006 10:51 AM
You did fine...your instincts were probably right on (based on the drivers reaction)...and your actions probably made the driver re-think what he was going to do next.
The cussing and swearing were probably to put you on the defense and to illict a response from you/your friends to "cause" him to react because you were "dissing" him.
Once he saw there was a sheepherder among the sheep (you!)--he probably thought it was best for his health that he leave.
This is definitely a teaching point to your friends--Friends don't let friends be in condition white. *They* too, need to take responsibility for their safety--especially if they are now carrying.
My 2 cents.
Mike in VA
October 24th, 2006 11:11 AM
MattLarson's post nailed it, IMO. By moving to cover and preparing to fight back if necessary, you did what you needed to do to protect both yourself and your friends. If it had been what you thought it was, the situation would not have been improved if you had stood in the open along with them.
I don't think you need to beat yourself up over abandoning your friends -- you didn't. It isn't as though you ran away completely, and were not prepared to fight if necessary.
October 24th, 2006 11:18 AM
October 24th, 2006 11:34 AM
You did good, you did tip off your friends to the threat if they choose not to act that does not make you responsible for them.
October 24th, 2006 03:04 PM
Sounds like you did OK to me. They're adults and need to get themselves to cover too. You can't help them or cover them if you are down.
In fact, who knows, you may have actually stopped something. From what you described, it could very well have been clear to the potential BG that you were taking cover and going for your own weapon. Even without drawing. If I saw someone dive behind a vehicle, and move his hand to his waist, I would think he was doing what you were doing.
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