What if you know the BG?
Kairo's thread got me thinking about the categories we tend to slot people in when talking tactical scenarios on these boards. In most of these discussions there are only loved ones, innocent strangers, and bad guys (and occasionally potential bad guys). His thread made me think about the dividing line between loved ones and innocent strangers (people you know, but wouldn't necessarily lay down your life for). However, it also led me to think about a much scarier subject, the possible blending of bad guys and friends/loved ones (I'm posting these musings in a new thread to avoid hijacking his).
One big difference between the scenarios discussed in this forum and those in the Armed Citizen Success Stories is that in this forum, bad guys are almost always faceless assailants: muggers, carjackers, burglars, armed robbers, etc. In many of the Success Stories, however, the shooter knows the assailant: an ex-boyfriend, a friend, even a family member. This begs the question, what do you do when you face an imminent threat of grave injury or death from someone you know?
It can be hard to conceive of someone we know or love posing a deadly threat, but drugs, alcohol, a break-up, or mental illness could all lead to such a tragic situation. Could I pull the trigger on a friend? Would I be willing to put myself at greater risk to avoid shooting a loved one than a stranger? How much more? What if one friend or loved one is threatening another? Would I be willing to put one family member at greater risk to avoid shooting another?
I don't have the answers to any this, but it seems like we ought to face the fact that we may have to line up our sights on a familiar face, rather than some anonymous stranger.
This way you can call them by name when you warn them.
I would think that each individual situation would warrant it's own unique defensive reaction.
I'm guessing that we would all be willing to expose ourselves to somewhat more risk of personal injury should a family member be the Bad Guy rather than a totally unknown assailant.
Good questions. I don't know if there are any concrete correct answers.
Statistics show that in all likely hood you will know anyone who forces you to shoot them . Quite possibly they will be family of one sort or another . IMHO this is because strangers do not have the same ability to invoke strong emotions in us , nor we in them . And make no mistake , Shooting or shooting at someone is a passionate activity . I am not saying it wont be a stranger ect.. Just that there is a better chance that you can look around your circle of friends, family , and accountancies and find the person you will have to defend yourself or your loved ones from .
Sounds harse but a threats a threat to me not that I would want to but a BG is a BG. If someone you knew where to do this how well did you know them?
This is a picture I have considered a good many times - however unlikely (we hope impossible).
Essentially, a threat - is a threat - but it would not be beyond the realms of possibility to perhaps imagine a good friend being (foolishly) spaced out on some ''stuff'' and freaking out, looking for someone to shoot!
Unlikely maybe but for the purposes of this discussion not totally impossible. So, what would happen? I reckon one of the most likely responses could be hesitation, brought on maybe by both disbelief and a natural wish not to harm the person you know well (so you thought).
That aside, we would have to play it as we saw it in order to survive - assuming we could still be sufficiently reactive. However unlikely any scenario may seem, we cannot ever label anything as impossible.
Here's some reality--my sister-in-law was separating from her husband--they live about 5 miles from us. Her ex-husband is a prideful, egotistical, name-dropping, controlling, arrogant SOB--and owns a few firearms (pistols, shotguns).
During the separation, tempers were flaring, bad words said and letters exchanged. As this was going on, his security clearance investigation was on-going and some things came to light during the separation that would have impacted his ability to get a renewed clearance. Being the prideful, arrogant, etc. man he is, I was seriously concerned he would try to do something to harm me and my family.
I seriously considered whether I could pull the trigger on him if he presented himself as a legitimate threat...but in context, he was no longer a brother-in-law--he was a BG who was out to harm my family.
Rule 21. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet
Rule 22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
Mike in VA
sigguy i had a similar experiance , except it was with my couson , it drug on for years of on again off again threat levels depending on his level of substance abuse . Its a rough go when you wake up every morning asking yourself , Is this the day I will have to kill a family member . IMHO tho once you have decided that you will if needed drop them then it becomes easyer to live with the " what iffs' .
Been here before.
At least in my thinking and discussions with my wife.
Havig a brother-in-law, who is a crackhead and known theif, I have had to conteplate this issue. He has been in and out of prison for 20 years. He steals from his own Mother, so no action is beneath him.
I have banned his presence on my property, sober or not. Being a Christian who is taught to forgive, I have set some conditions which can be met to lift the restriction, to show that I am not being vindictive. I am protecting my family from him until he has proven worthy of trust. It will take years, and is unlikely to happen, given his track record.
My wife is scared of making him angry. She asked, what if he gets mad and gets on drugs and comes over here and tries to hurt us?
My answer to her was that if he steals from us, I will have him prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, hopefully put him away for good. But have resigned myself to not go beyond that over a property crime.
If he were to come into my home and exhibit violent behavior toward me, he will be made to regret it and beyond that I will have him put in jail for as long as possible.
If he poses a deadly threat to me or my family (wife, daughter) I have already made up my mind as to what I will do, but only if absolutly necessary to preserve one of us.
I hope it never comes to that, as it would be tough to live with the rest of her family in the aftermath. I don't think it will come to that, because he likely knows me well enough to avoid the outcome. I think this is why I am the only one in the family he has never stolen from. (yet)
In this instance, assuming that life is on the line, I am very cold and calculating. COLD HARD MATH. As the saying goes. Them or me. HMMM let me think for a minute....Duh, me. Am I wrong for thinking such? I think not, but perhaps my opinion is biased this time. I certainly hope so...
I would have to kinda agree with SgtD on this one. If it is someone that is in my family or very close friends, I would try my dang hardest for it not to come down to that, but if my life is at risk, looks like most of us agree if you have to, you have to.
I know that many of the members are probably aware of this, but for those of you who aren't: I have worked many homicides, shootings, stabbings, domestic disturbances, etc. over the last 20+ years as a LEO.
It is a hard and sobering fact that: "the person most likely to murder you or do you serious bodily injury" is a spouse, loved one or close friend. This seems to contradict the way most of us are morally raised, but is true. You can check the homicide statistic's from any major city and see that this is almost always true.
It obviously does not make it any easier to use deadly force against them (if it ever came to that), but ones reluctance to act quickly could very well cost us our lives if we do not. Hesitation could give the BG (and I must include loved ones in this category) the extra fractions of seconds to cause our demise.
I hope none of you ever have to be faced with this situation, but reality requires one to at least consider the possibility. I've personally known persons who have had to carry through with deadly force against a "Loved one" and the guilt really eats at you.
I am not very fond of my uncle. I would hate for that day to ever come. Believe me. But another problem that I would face would be that his military branch would come after me for "damaging gov't property". He is always hot headed, thinks he owns the place, and never had a problem beating me up. I now avoid him at all cost. When we do meet at times, we have attempted to engage in a battle of wits, but he is always unarmed.
When dating the first wife the father-in-law to be was locked up in the "Padded Room" about once a year, a real hot head that would fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. I always thought it was mostly "show", his way of intimidating the family and getting his way. We were visiting one time and he was out back in his shop, suddenly he burst in the back door with a hand ax, all red in the face (he was a red head anyway) and yelling he was tired of things always going against him and he was going to kill everyone and get it over with. Her family all knew I carried and as he started through the kitchen to the living room where her mom, 2 aunts and us were sitting I just said "Don; if you come through that door I'm going to have to kill you, and you and I both know the law won't do a thing to me...'CAUSE YOU'RE CRAZY"
Well he just stood at the doorway a few seconds thinking about it, just turned and went back out to his shop. Her mom who was handicapped, in pain all the time and abused pain killers (yea, real stable family, but hey she was built like Dolly Parton......) laughed and said "Don may be crazy....but he's not stupid".
We were married a year later and married for 5 years, during that whole time I never saw another one of his tantrums:image035:
But it did make me think; and yea, I could do it "IF" I had to, would probably give a family member that extra half second a stranger would't get, but yes.
Sums It Up...
Originally Posted by SIGguy229
Rule 19. Stay alert.
Rule 20. Stay calm.
Rules 21 -22...See quote...
Rule 23. Call 911..."I feared for my life..."