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Draw? No draw? (Edit added again)

9K views 114 replies 50 participants last post by  Snub44 
#1 · (Edited)
I'm in a bit of a discussion on another forum I visit on occasion, and I'd like to get a few opinions from folks here. Here's the scenario:

You're [entering] the emergency room late at night, where your ill spouse has been transported. You see "a dark figure" 20 feet away in the dim light who asks for a cigarette. That's all that has occured.

A simple question. Please, no IFs, BUTs' etc. You, emergency room, late at night, someone in the dim light asks for a Cig. Is that reason to actually draw a weapon?


[Jeopardy tune time now]


Thought about it long enough? I'll add in some tidbits of further info and now see if you opinion changes.

The individual in question is a 60-year-old retired, (apparently, not confirmed) disabled (don't know of any retired LEOs who aren't to some extent) LEO with 30 years of "experience" who pulled his 442 out and placed it behind his leg, an "old LEO trick" from his early days. No one saw him draw his gun (His claim). No one implies the guy asking for the Cig approached you.

Do you still think it was proper/improper for him to draw his firearm, even if unobserved, given this additional data? My opinion later.

EDIT: Slight edits to make this as close to his OP without pasting. I'd post what the OP (the LEO) said in its entirely but don't want to infringe on any copyright rules. There really isn't any other conditions to his post, just some "after the fact" additions that don't add anything to what I've set forth.

Re-edit: See post #29 for a link to the OP's thread. If you feel I've omitted some important facts, please say so.
 
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#58 ·
Based on the information, I'd say drawing a weapon in this situation was over the top. There was no threat made, not threatening actions by the person bumming a smoke. While my SA would have heightened, my gun would have stayed where it was.
 
#59 ·
This is much what i expected here, never expected total agreement on whether drawing was warranted or not. For curiosity sake, one (1) other poster on the other forum agreed that drawing was NOT warranted, 40-some say it was. Maybe to them it's more of a case of (not) getting caught drawing in public than whether it was right or wrong.
 
#60 ·
I read the OP in the other forum. The gentleman wasnot asking for folks opinions. I think he felt he did the right thing and doesn't want to here anythig different. His whole mindset about the incident is "cautious paranoia"...I just made that up LOL. He had an incident that happened 40 years previously and sounds like ever since then he doesn't trust anyone.

His whole rationale behind being suspicious is strange to begin with.

If you needed a smoke, would you go to a hospital parking lot on a cold winter night, at 3:00 AM just hoping someone who smokes and has a pack on him will show up before you freeze your *** off?
The guy asking for a cigarette could have been wondering the same thing? What are you doing out here? Since you can't smoke in a hospital it is logical to see someone outside smoking or looking for a smoke. Nothing strange or unusual abut that at all.
How many non-smokers, since smoking has become the thing not to do, would you have to process before you hit the right combination of a smoker with some on him?
This is the OP's brain trying to find a reason to be suspicious. If the man is looking for a cigarette of course he will ask everyone he thinks that smokes if they have some on them. And chances are that a smoker will have smokes on him.

He is comparing this to folks knocking on a door asking to use their phone:
Asking for a cig at 3:00 AM in an isolated area is the same thing.
3AM in a hospital parking lot where is where smokers would be is not unusual by any stretch of the imagination. If the dudes wife was in surgery or they were waiting for his wife to deliver a person very well could run out of cigarettes and not want to leave the hospital.
I have a good story that happened on a very dark night almost 40 years ago in which I dragged a guy about half a mile with his arm clamped in my truck window, and it all started with a conversation that he had the right to initiate in a place he had a right to be.

Had I not caught on to the fact that there was another guy standing at the rear of my truck, I might not be here today.
Glad nothing happened to him 40 years ago. But IMO he is a paranoid son of a gun and his logic is lacking. To draw a weapon with his reasoning is plain out wrong. The threat was in his mind.
 
#62 ·
I read the OP in the other forum. The gentleman wasnot asking for folks opinions. I think he felt he did the right thing and doesn't want to here anythig different. His whole mindset about the incident is "cautious paranoia"...I just made that up LOL. He had an incident that happened 40 years previously and sounds like ever since then he doesn't trust anyone.

His whole rationale behind being suspicious is strange to begin with.


The guy asking for a cigarette could have been wondering the same thing? What are you doing out here? Since you can't smoke in a hospital it is logical to see someone outside smoking or looking for a smoke. Nothing strange or unusual abut that at all.

This is the OP's brain trying to find a reason to be suspicious. If the man is looking for a cigarette of course he will ask everyone he thinks that smokes if they have some on them. And chances are that a smoker will have smokes on him.

He is comparing this to folks knocking on a door asking to use their phone:

3AM in a hospital parking lot where is where smokers would be is not unusual by any stretch of the imagination. If the dudes wife was in surgery or they were waiting for his wife to deliver a person very well could run out of cigarettes and not want to leave the hospital.


Glad nothing happened to him 40 years ago. But IMO he is a paranoid son of a gun and his logic is lacking. To draw a weapon with his reasoning is plain out wrong. The threat was in his mind.
I couldn't agree more.

What concerns me is all if those that encouraged this type of behavior on the other forum. Think about how damaging this sort of behavior can be! - What if the guy asking for a cigarette went to pull out his lighter in anticipation of "bumming a smoke". Mr. Cautious Paranoia then fully draws on the individual! - All CHL holders would then be under assault from a public now afraid of crazy people.
 
#64 ·
I by no means mean to offend any LEO's (or Ex) here, but this guy seems to me to be exactly the kind of person we don't want carrying. Does he have a right to do so? Absolutely. However his actions, good intentioned though they may have been, were definitely over the top (IMO). In this case his "instincts" were wrong. You don't draw on an instinct. You draw when there is a real known threat. Now, could he have prepared himself to draw if it became necessary? Of course! And that is what he should have done. He is wrong on this one, and who knows how many others.
 
#65 ·
Todays Situation

Hey guys, I am new to this site and stumbled onto this topic. I have a cwp here in SC and carry 100% of the time.

Today after lunch my helper and i were aproaching a red light when a guy in a small s 10 truck cut us off with no signal ( kind of a, you better stop because here i come). As he pulled in front of us he actually cliped the front bumper. I raised my hands pissed off and shouted ***. He then game the the universal gesture. So i returned the gesture. Just as i did this he locked his brakes up. Being that he had just cut us off i did tap his bumber before stoping. So were both at a stop... I see him open his door. I look down, unbuckle my seat belt and put the car in park. When i look back up he is at the front of my vehicle. i open the door, put a foot out and begin to stand up. Just then he slams my door pinning me against the car. I put one had up to block punches and the other under my jacket and on my gun. he hit like a girl and although i was kinda stuck i didnt feel like my life was in danger. My helper got out and the guy backed up as if he wanted to fight. I told the guy he was absolutly crazy and got back in the car. He jumped in his truck and hauled but. I called police and expained everything.

Again, I felt like at any time i could have ended his life and that the current situation didnt justify doing so.
Would you guys have done things differently, besides not flipping him off?
 
#70 ·
Hey guys, I am new to this site and stumbled onto this topic. I have a cwp here in SC and carry 100% of the time.

Today after lunch my helper and i were aproaching a red light when a guy in a small s 10 truck cut us off with no signal ( kind of a, you better stop because here i come). As he pulled in front of us he actually cliped the front bumper. I raised my hands pissed off and shouted ***. He then game the the universal gesture. So i returned the gesture. Just as i did this he locked his brakes up. Being that he had just cut us off i did tap his bumber before stoping. So were both at a stop... I see him open his door. I look down, unbuckle my seat belt and put the car in park. When i look back up he is at the front of my vehicle. i open the door, put a foot out and begin to stand up. Just then he slams my door pinning me against the car. I put one had up to block punches and the other under my jacket and on my gun. he hit like a girl and although i was kinda stuck i didnt feel like my life was in danger. My helper got out and the guy backed up as if he wanted to fight. I told the guy he was absolutly crazy and got back in the car. He jumped in his truck and hauled but. I called police and expained everything.

Again, I felt like at any time i could have ended his life and that the current situation didnt justify doing so.
Would you guys have done things differently, besides not flipping him off?
I wouldn't have flipped him off at all and if he did clip your bumper get the license plate and report it. Whether you like it or not when carrying one has to alter their behavior and not stoop to another persons level by flipping people off, and no the thought doesn't cross my mind that I have an ability to take someones life because its not in my daily thought process. Flipping the person off instead of letting it go was not only being confrontational but was rather immature IMO.
 
#66 ·
...I would not have screamed and cursed and waved my hands...I would not have flipped him off...I would not have purposely hit his truck with my vehicle...and I would not have gotten out to face him...the fact that I had the power of his life in my hands would not have even crossed my mind...it was a simple TRAFFIC ACCIDENT, for crying out loud!!! Lose the confrontational attitude and mature enough to control your anger before you rage yourself into a prison cell...and that's as gently as this old man can put it...

...oh...welcome to the Forum...lots to be learned here...:yup:
 
#67 ·
No, I didnt hit his vehicle purposly. This guy slamed on brakes in anger that i returned his gesture. Its more than a traffic accident when someone slams on the brakes to cause you to hit them out of anger. You say knowing you have the ability to take someones life doesnt cross your mind??? Why not?! You do dont you?! The entire time this idiot is throwing punches I remain calm. he stoped... no need to do anything else. Confrontational attitude? Realy. I guess your the 25mph in a 55.
 
#71 ·
I do agree that flipping the guy off was crossing a line. I think that my comment on knowing i have the ability to use leathal force is being taken the wrong way. Im never one to start a screaming match or "want" to argue. I do speak my mind most of the time. I dont think that a normal person would cause a fender bender due to there stupid actions and then when (as you typicaly would do) stop and get out of your car attack the other driver. When i say i was thinking about what i could do... all i mean is i was aware of what level this attack was.
I didnt smile at him and say yea your bad. I think if i had to do it over again i wouldnt have fliped him off. I like to be aware of whats going on, That way if someone smaps and hits me in the face i dont over react and shoot them.

i see it wrong that i flipped im off. but knowing what i could do????
 
#73 ·
Welll first while maybe raising your arms could be a startled reaction and ill go along with that one. Uncaging your own bird in response to his bird was asking to escalate the thing. I dont think from what you say you could have avoided bumping him when he slammed on his brakes however.

While the first part could obviously have been done better the latter part was a disaster except for the fact you didnt shoot the guy.
Hes getting out of his car and you take your eyes off him to unbuckle a seat belt? Next time you see him hes at the front of your car? He could just have easily have had a gun and blown your head off while you were fiddling with a seat belt.

Then you try to get out and the guy pins by your own door and punched. Not withstanding the whole thing could have been avoided probably. if this guy had been like some road rage incidents you were way behind the curve from beginning to end.

Not being hard on you or anything but instead of feeling you could have ended his life at anytime you should be thanking your lucky stars this guy wasnt an armed idiot like the one that shot the teens in Fla and that your still alive. This guy could have offed you at any point from leaving his car right up to slamming your own car door on you. Just a little food for thought
 
#78 ·
You arent an idiot. You are simply someone that did what all of us have done somewhere along the line and let your emotions get away with you. Ive done it, I doubt there are few here that havent at some point or another.
And I didnt point out what I did to make you feel stupid. There are a lot of folks carrying a weapon, some legally some not legally. What may seem like a fender bender bird flipping little pain in the butt in your day, the other guy might easily have been a fruitcake with a gun in a rage intent at that moment on killing you over nothing.
It happens alot. I only pointed it out so that perhaps you might learn from this that what may seem a fender bender etc etc can turn into having your lights put out permenantly and for no good reason at all. My post was just some food for thought for the future. Perhaps being a bit more watchful and not giving someone an edge you cant possibly overcome if they want to take advantage of it. Be safe.
 
#80 ·
Wow...


Tons of 2d guessing this man.


I respect retired Police Officers. Many have been through years of leaving the house daily to deploy to a combat zone, then return home.

This fella has obviously seen soem action to hav ehis radar tuned like that, and bunch of commandos here (most I'm guessing have never been shot at) in here are throwing this guy under the Bus.


None of us were there.


Cheers,

R
 
#81 ·
I'm a little confused here. So just because someone has past experience in certain areas means their decision making skills in infallible? Based on the little bit we know he cleared his holster because someone asked him a question, from a reasonable distance, he didn't encroach, he wasn't badgered verbally, the unknown contact wasn't hiding something in his hands, and I could keep going.

Commando? Hardly. Never been shot at (as many LEO's haven't as well in their careers) but your logic is lacking. If anything the ex office was playing commando when he is no longer a LEO, but now an average everyday citizen with a commendable background. Now it's a whole new ballgame.

I was not there but if the OP story is how the entire exchange went down the guy made a mistake and had a lack in judgement period.
 
#82 ·
As just about any cop knows, that simple request for a cig, or the time, is a frequent precursor to a robbery. Not everytime, obviously, but those approaches are employed in an effort to get people to let their guard down, and for the BG to gauge the intended victims alertness. So, the Ops experience definitely plays into it. I'm not saying that drawing was right but if no one else saw it, just the simple boost in projected confidence may have dissuaded the BG, if he had been intent on acting. If he wasn't a BG then he, by the account we were given, was left unaware.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
 
#89 ·
He was entering the ER, not in it. The man was in the dim light.
 
#84 ·
...I don't see a cop with 30 years of experience considering easing his weapon out of the holster to have the edge in a "hairs up" situation even noteworthy enough to mention...much less on a public forum...this seems like a "scenario" that someone thought up...a seasoned cop doesn't need to have his actions validated by the members of a gun forum...
 
#85 ·
In TX, hospitals are posted 30.06 gun free.

So I have no gun. I do carry either a 5.5" fixed or folder which would stay right in my pocket or appendix carry for the fixed, tactically in the same AIWB where I carry my glock.

I would say "No" and walk in without a second thought. If my spidey sense tingled, most hospitals have a Sheriff deputy inside and I share my thoughts.

Drawing a knife or gun, as the scenario is posted by OldVet, is clear brandishing. The guy isn't even closing distance, which if he said the same stuff, STILL wouldnt legally justify drawing anything.

Only if you started setting tripwires...yelling back off for example....and he was still using force of motion to close distance...would I start to think about creating a little more space, saying it again forcefully, and putting my hand on a holstered (fixed) or clipped (folder) tool...

Only then could I show the perp demonstrated legal deliberate indifference. Only then did I begin to take tactical measures. Watch hands.....

As written, the guy likely has a family member in emergency and he smokes to reduce his stress. With my wife in the hospital, odds favor we have way more in common than him "assaulting" me.

I would favor drawing down with compassion.
 
#87 ·
I think this retired officer is a reason to get rid of LEOSA LOL:35:
And for the gentleman that second we are throwing him under the bus I have this to say: This forum is to give opinions on this mans actions. By his own words there was not ONE indication the guy was up to no good. He takes his weapon out because he felt something was not right. The dude IMO is a nervous Nelly that can not forget about the incident he had 40 years ago.
 
#88 ·
Leos have the authority and freedom to many things that do not extend to the civilian world, not should they. I don't arrest criminals, I don't serve warrents, etc. Common LEO practices that apply to LEOs doing these things do not apply to me walking around in public.

I am not, and never will be an LEO, and I do not know what the LEOSA covers other than allowing former LEO carrying. But do the standard practices of an active LEO carry over to those under LEOSA? I don't think "Once a cop, always a cop" applies across the board. I do know there are strcit policies (or guidelines if one prefers) for the LEOs I worked with for drawing a firearm. drawing a hadgun, even if unseen, because someone in a dimly lit area asked for a smoke, did not fall under those guidelines.
 
#91 ·
Common sense and when to properly draw is taught in those classes. Look, I am going by the dude's post. There is not one indication of the guy being a BG. His rationale is flawed from the start when he thinks it is strange for some to ask for a cigarette outside of a hospital.
 
#93 ·
What I think some (all?) need to think about is this: having a permit to carry, whether under LEOSA or state-issued permit, is just that, only a license to "carry," not a green light to use. Once you've removed a firearm from its holster, that firearm is "in use," whether "brandished" in a threatening manner or used "covertly" and hidden from view, and you enter a entirely different set of laws. Instinct may save your life, and instinct make put you in legal jeopardy just as quickly.
 
#95 ·
I suppose he could have pointed his 442 and said, "No Sig--S&W!"
 
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