Draw? No draw? (Edit added again) - Page 4

Draw? No draw? (Edit added again)

This is a discussion on Draw? No draw? (Edit added again) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Eerily similar to a situation I found myself in last week. Leaving the hospital, visiting my dad after he had surgery, an individual in a ...

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Thread: Draw? No draw? (Edit added again)

  1. #46
    New Member Array Sparky508's Avatar
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    Eerily similar to a situation I found myself in last week. Leaving the hospital, visiting my dad after he had surgery, an individual in a remote parking lot was being very insistent about getting a ride. I was carrying concealed, and while I did not full on draw, I was on about halfway. (never fully drew my pistol) He was, best I can tell alone, as I checked the area I quit hearing the words come out of his mouth. Not sure if he registered what my motion was, but decided to go look somewhere else for a "ride".

    I suspect Ill get hollered at for brandishing or what have you, but after fact armchair criticism doesn't hurt as much as a thump in the bean by someone potentially willing to do a guy harm.


  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array SCXDm9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    I can tell you this........if SHTF and you percieve a threat ....brandishing will be the last issue you'll be concerned with.

    From what I read S didn't HTF and there was not theat. Why the gun? Seems like a good way to get shot in the back by Barney Fife.. I mean a security gaurd.

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    My comments weren't necessarilly directed at the OP's event............just in general terms.

  4. #49
    Distinguished Member Array SCXDm9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    My comments weren't necessarilly directed at the OP's event............just in general terms.
    My bad, then I agree...

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I'm in a bit of a discussion on another forum I visit on occasion, and I'd like to get a few opinions from folks here. Here's the scenario:

    You're [entering] the emergency room late at night, where your ill spouse has been transported. You see "a dark figure" 20 feet away in the dim light who asks for a cigarette. That's all that has occured.

    A simple question. Please, no IFs, BUTs' etc. You, emergency room, late at night, someone in the dim light asks for a Cig. Is that reason to actually draw a weapon?


    [Jeopardy tune time now]


    Thought about it long enough? I'll add in some tidbits of further info and now see if you opinion changes.

    The individual in question is a 60-year-old retired, (apparently, not confirmed) disabled (don't know of any retired LEOs who aren't to some extent) LEO with 30 years of "experience" who pulled his 442 out and placed it behind his leg, an "old LEO trick" from his early days. No one saw him draw his gun (His claim). No one implies the guy asking for the Cig approached you.

    Do you still think it was proper/improper for him to draw his firearm, even if unobserved, given this additional data? My opinion later.

    EDIT: Slight edits to make this as close to his OP without pasting. I'd post what the OP (the LEO) said in its entirely but don't want to infringe on any copyright rules. There really isn't any other conditions to his post, just some "after the fact" additions that don't add anything to what I've set forth.

    Re-edit: See post #29 for a link to the OP's thread. If you feel I've omitted some important facts, please say so.
    OK, I haven't ready any further than this original post to this forum, so I don't know any particulars yet, but my answer to your question as to whether to draw in this situation, is NO, based on the original information given. If someone were in a darkened area outside of the hospital asking for a cigarette, I would tell him that I don't smoke and I don't have any cigarettes, which is true. If his next action makes me feel that my safety is in danger and I was too far from the entrance to get in quickly, then yes, I would draw.

  6. #51
    Member Array WarMachine's Avatar
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    No need to draw. I would watch them as I enter the ER but unless I get that gut feeling I would place my hand by my gun and that's all until I'm further provoked like him walking up on me, etc.

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    If the dude is a retired police officer, he probably has a finer tuned radar than many other folks...if he felt a bad vibe, thats his radar talking.



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  8. #53
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    It seems to me that there are many who don't know the exact definition of "brandishing".
    I thought it was something to the effect of drawing or holding your weapon in a menacing manner.....
    Secret Spuk likes this.
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  9. #54
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    Draw? No draw? (Edit added again)

    I don't know how anyone could just by drawing a weapon in this case. I don't care if he is an old cop or not. He should know better. It doesn't matter that the gun was hidden behind his leg; you should not draw your weapon unless the situation dictates the use of deadly force with it. This situation was not even close.

  10. #55
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    Not a full draw. I always make sure my draw isnt blocked by jacket or something that I cant get to my firearm fast. Likely I would just slip my hand onto my weapon under whatever cover im wearing for it. Can get it out as fast that way as from behind my leg.
    That said unless brandishing laws are drastically different where this occured even drawing and holding it see by your leg wouldnt be "brandishing". Theres no law here at least prohibiting the casual taking out of a weapon. Brandishing means to use it in a threatening manner not simply draw it and not point it anyone or threaten them with it.
    Ive done the behind my leg thing with handguns at home at the door a time or two late at night over the years even with a shotgun hidden behind my leg like that once. And ive taken guns off to remove clothing add clothing while on my bike in plain sight with nary a peep from public or LE.
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  11. #56
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    I'm that guy...lol Retired police officer carrying a 442... I'd defer to the retired officers judgment. Most people have never been in an armed confrontation. Those who have understand the dynamics of real confrontations. My opinion is a person should prepare him/herself to meet violence as quickly, and as quietly as possible.. If the officer choose to pull the gun, and hold it close I'd agree it was probably a prudent move. While I may have done it differently... Not much differently.

    Over the years on my life I have learned to trust my instincts. If a situation cause me to alert to danger... I'm going with it. I'm not going to stop and try to anylize the situation until I feel I've prepared flee from, or met the potential threat. While I have no statistical data...I wonder how many people became victims to one level or another while trying to rationalize their situation. Thats just human nature, and many criminals count on these seconds of confusion to close the gap, or present their con.

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    I'm that guy...lol Retired police officer carrying a 442... I'd defer to the retired officers judgment. Most people have never been in an armed confrontation. Those who have understand the dynamics of real confrontations. My opinion is a person should prepare him/herself to meet violence as quickly, and as quietly as possible.. If the officer choose to pull the gun, and hold it close I'd agree it was probably a prudent move. While I may have done it differently... Not much differently.



    Over the years on my life I have learned to trust my instincts. If a situation cause me to alert to danger... I'm going with it. I'm not going to stop and try to anylize the situation until I feel I've prepared flee from, or met the potential threat. While I have no statistical data...I wonder how many people became victims to one level or another while trying to rationalize their situation. Thats just human nature, and many criminals count on these seconds of confusion to close the gap, or present their con.
    I have to agree completely. While I may not have actually put the weapon behind my leg you can bet I would already have had my hand on my weapon as discretely as possible and not interfere with my draw. As Spuk says if one has never been put in that position its hard for them to grasp just how fast a situation can go from innocent to a level of violence that most have a hard time imagining and are not ready for. Better to be a bit ahead of the situation than behind the curve even if indiscretely. JMO
    Secret Spuk likes this.
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  13. #58
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    Based on the information, I'd say drawing a weapon in this situation was over the top. There was no threat made, not threatening actions by the person bumming a smoke. While my SA would have heightened, my gun would have stayed where it was.
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  14. #59
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    This is much what i expected here, never expected total agreement on whether drawing was warranted or not. For curiosity sake, one (1) other poster on the other forum agreed that drawing was NOT warranted, 40-some say it was. Maybe to them it's more of a case of (not) getting caught drawing in public than whether it was right or wrong.
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  15. #60
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    I read the OP in the other forum. The gentleman wasnot asking for folks opinions. I think he felt he did the right thing and doesn't want to here anythig different. His whole mindset about the incident is "cautious paranoia"...I just made that up LOL. He had an incident that happened 40 years previously and sounds like ever since then he doesn't trust anyone.

    His whole rationale behind being suspicious is strange to begin with.

    If you needed a smoke, would you go to a hospital parking lot on a cold winter night, at 3:00 AM just hoping someone who smokes and has a pack on him will show up before you freeze your *** off?
    The guy asking for a cigarette could have been wondering the same thing? What are you doing out here? Since you can't smoke in a hospital it is logical to see someone outside smoking or looking for a smoke. Nothing strange or unusual abut that at all.
    How many non-smokers, since smoking has become the thing not to do, would you have to process before you hit the right combination of a smoker with some on him?
    This is the OP's brain trying to find a reason to be suspicious. If the man is looking for a cigarette of course he will ask everyone he thinks that smokes if they have some on them. And chances are that a smoker will have smokes on him.

    He is comparing this to folks knocking on a door asking to use their phone:
    Asking for a cig at 3:00 AM in an isolated area is the same thing.
    3AM in a hospital parking lot where is where smokers would be is not unusual by any stretch of the imagination. If the dudes wife was in surgery or they were waiting for his wife to deliver a person very well could run out of cigarettes and not want to leave the hospital.
    I have a good story that happened on a very dark night almost 40 years ago in which I dragged a guy about half a mile with his arm clamped in my truck window, and it all started with a conversation that he had the right to initiate in a place he had a right to be.

    Had I not caught on to the fact that there was another guy standing at the rear of my truck, I might not be here today.
    Glad nothing happened to him 40 years ago. But IMO he is a paranoid son of a gun and his logic is lacking. To draw a weapon with his reasoning is plain out wrong. The threat was in his mind.
    R040607 and tcox4freedom like this.
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