I'm in a bit of a discussion on another forum I visit on occasion, and I'd like to get a few opinions from folks here. Here's the scenario:
You're [entering] the emergency room late at night, where your ill spouse has been transported. You see "a dark figure" 20 feet away in the dim light who asks for a cigarette. That's all that has occured.
A simple question. Please, no IFs, BUTs' etc. You, emergency room, late at night, someone in the dim light asks for a Cig. Is that reason to actually draw a weapon?
[Jeopardy tune time now]
Thought about it long enough? I'll add in some tidbits of further info and now see if you opinion changes.
The individual in question is a 60-year-old retired, (apparently, not confirmed) disabled (don't know of any retired LEOs who aren't to some extent) LEO with 30 years of "experience" who pulled his 442 out and placed it behind his leg, an "old LEO trick" from his early days. No one saw him draw his gun (His claim). No one implies the guy asking for the Cig approached you.
Do you still think it was proper/improper for him to draw his firearm, even if unobserved, given this additional data? My opinion later.
EDIT: Slight edits to make this as close to his OP without pasting. I'd post what the OP (the LEO) said in its entirely but don't want to infringe on any copyright rules. There really isn't any other conditions to his post, just some "after the fact" additions that don't add anything to what I've set forth.
Re-edit: See post #29 for a link to the OP's thread. If you feel I've omitted some important facts, please say so.
Retired LEO is now just a ccw civilian. My question to him, would you have ticketed/arrested a ccw civillian for the same action when you were still on duty. I would almost guarantee his answer would be "of course".
Different set of rules now.
This post based on the assumption that brandishing is against the law in his locality.
"The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force."
The retired officer did not threaten anyone, he merely prepared himself. According to the original scenario, he did not cause alarm to anyone (a necessary element in Texas, therefore, no crime has been commidtted. I don't care what your classes have taught you. If it were to boil down to and entity, such as a grand jury questioning the retired oficer's motives, I'm sure he would be able to express his concerns based upon years of dealing with the unknowns and underbelly of society, all of which most of you guys don't have. This is why your instructors teach you when to draw and not draw a handgun. Each state is different but based on exerience in these matters, if it occurred where I worked, he would not be charged.
Why does everyone assume an officer of 40 years is the most competent person to make a decision years after he leaves the force. In fact, why do follks assume he was even a good LEO? LEO's like everyone else have their duds. And LEO's (retired and active) make mistakes just like everyone else.
Forget he is a retired LEO and put in "old dude, possibly stressed becuase of the medical condition of his wife, tired at 3 AM like most folks and more so because he most likely has not got a lot of sleep". Lets see how the coments flow then.
I really didn't want my OP to get bent and distorted but knew it would. I think with a lot of retired, Ex-LEOs old habits die hard, their muscle memory one might say.
It does nothing to say whether it was legally justifiable or not, but on a personal level, I'd be inclined to cut a retired cop some slack on this as well. This is why: Asking for a cigarette has to be the #1 most common way to attract the attention of someone who is about to be mugged. It's happened to me. I was able to subdue the probably 15 year old gang member without drawing my gun. It happened to a good friend of mine who is a Marine officer in Baltimore. One scumbag asked for a cigarette while another approached from behind and smashed him in the head with a 40 ounce bottle. He wound up unconscious in the street. They even took his shoes, and could have killed him. A cop would know this tactic and probably reacted instinctively. But like I said before, IF the smoker guy had seen the weapon and reported to police that he felt terrorized, the retired cop broke the law and could have (if he wasn't a retired cop) been arrested.
This is a good reason to grab that little flashlight too when you grab the gun, on your way out the door. That's the only way of knowing if the shadowy figure 20 feet away has earned a quick draw. Hate to use stereotypes, but a particular type of individual tends to frequent emergency rooms late at night. They don't feel at all awkward asking for things to which they feel entitled; they're used to it. If there's one place people will ask you for something, and mean it, it's late at night in front of the ER.
And for god's sake, if someone you don't know approaches in a public place asking for a smoke, check your six. Criminals are too lazy to think up fresh tactics I guess.
I haven't been around very many smokers who didn't bum cigarettes at one time or another, with no evil intent involved. And no one gave a hint of a suggestion that SA shouldn't be raised to its fullest at 3 AM in a dimly lit place. But as to cutting the retired cop some slack, do you think he would have if it were 20 years ago and the situation were reversed between you and him? I don't think so. You'd have that free ride for brandishing in all likelihood. While I respect what he may have done in his career, he is off the force now and doesn't deserve special priviliges that we lower class civilians do not receive.
It does nothing to say whether it was legally justifiable or not, but on a personal level, I'd be inclined to cut a retired cop some slack on this as well. This is why: Asking for a cigarette has to be the #1 most common way to attract the attention of someone who is about to be mugged. It's happened to me. I was able to subdue the probably 15 year old gang member without drawing my gun. It happened to a good friend of mine who is a Marine officer in Baltimore. One scumbag asked for a cigarette while another approached from behind and smashed him in the head with a 40 ounce bottle. He wound up unconscious in the street. They even took his shoes, and could have killed him. A cop would know this tactic and probably reacted instinctively. But like I said before, IF the smoker guy had seen the weapon and reported to police that he felt terrorized, the retired cop broke the law and could have (if he wasn't a retired cop) been arrested.
This is a good reason to grab that little flashlight too when you grab the gun, on your way out the door. That's the only way of knowing if the shadowy figure 20 feet away has earned a quick draw. Hate to use stereotypes, but a particular type of individual tends to frequent emergency rooms late at night. They don't feel at all awkward asking for things to which they feel entitled; they're used to it. If there's one place people will ask you for something, and mean it, it's late at night in front of the ER.
And for god's sake, if someone you don't know approaches in a public place asking for a smoke, check your six. Criminals are too lazy to think up fresh tactics I guess.
...as to the comments equating a seasoned, experienced LEO with other "old guys" or civilians...that's laughable...the years of decisions made in a second and dangerous situations and people you've learned to deal with produce patterns of thought and action that don't evaporate when they stamp "retired" on the paperwork...I'm 63 and haven't been a cop since '79...I'd rather face a hairy situation with a retired cop than any fresh young rookie I trained...and all of mine turned out great and are safely retired...it's not the muscles and reactions I want, but the cool heads and ability to size up a situation and deal with it wisely without escalating it that is important to "keeping the peace"...the years take the toll on the body...sure...but that's more than balanced by the experience...and the "old guy" sees and understands things the younguns look right over...
...give them your respect...they don't need your approval to enjoy the "privileges" their retired credentials afford them...they've EARNED every one of them...and still do...I've been reading accounts for over 40 years of "retired old guys" stepping up and making the difference and saving lives...even though they didn't have to...they're still very much a part of why we can sleep well at night...
Again..you are just assuming this guy is right on with his decision making because he was a LEO. Have you read the OP in the other forum. You explain to me at what point this dude should have felt threatend? Or do you suggest that we all draw our weapon when someone asks us for a cigarette. I mean now that all of us know of this trick we should all be suspicious at 3AM in a hospital parking lot when someone ask for a cigarette.
...I'm not assuming anything...I'm just reading what's presented here...(and the OP in the other forum)
...I neither justified or condemned the man...
...I DID clearly state that years of dealing with people and situations give insight and experience that books and classes don't impart...and that I'd trust his judgement and intuition about that particular situation...
...had you been working at the ER, and seen what the man did...nothing more...would you have been alarmed in any way once the man showed you his credentials?
...would you feel the same way if you'd seen a civilian with a CHL do exactly the same thing...and showed you his CHL?
...there IS a difference...
...as to the rest of the post...what you choose to do is your decision...and your experience will influence that...peace...
Do you know what I would have done if I was the guy asking for a cigarette and I saw a man pull his gun (and this is a no gun area) At 20 feet and if I did not have an avenue of escape I would have been on top the old man pummeling him away assuming he was a BG. Or at least have tried. That would make more sense than the other way around.
If it was not a no gun zone I would have shot him fearing for my life and would have been justified.
And here is a tid bit of wisdom also. The old man could not be 100 percent sure that everyone would not notice him with his gun. Some folks out there are very well trained and observant.
...those courses of action is why they wrote TX PC 9:31 AND 9:32 so carefully...
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