Can you draw so the BGs will possibly "Back Off?"

This is a discussion on Can you draw so the BGs will possibly "Back Off?" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ...to be correct, the first sentence under the quote should say "So threats are justifiable under Texas law if the use of force is justifiable ...

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Thread: Can you draw so the BGs will possibly "Back Off?"

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...to be correct, the first sentence under the quote should say "So threats are justifiable under Texas law if the use of force is justifiable under the above chapter." It's not what we believe is necessary that justifies us...it's are the ACTIONS of the BG fitting what the LAW says justifies the use of force...

    ...in other words...if I use my weapon to threaten someone...I must be able to find in Chapter 9 a passage that I can point to and say "He was doing THIS...and this law said the use of force is justified when someone does THIS."
    ...I cannot use my weapon to threaten him when his actions have not justified my USING my weapon...it sounds like a picky difference...but it's a BIG difference...and understanding it will keep us out of trouble...as police officers, we had a lot more "wiggle room" in presenting our weapons than does the average citizen...and that was a good thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by USM1976 View Post
    Here'sa bit of information about intimidation under Texas law:

    Texas Penal Code Section 9.04--Threats as Justifiable

    " The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force."

    So, threats are justifiable under Texas law. If an individual believea it is necessary to threaten an attacker in an effort to thwart his intentions, the CHL carrier can do so. Police officers draw handguns everyday in an effort to persuade thugs to stop, and so can CHL carriers. BUT, I will agree with another commenter...call the police and make a report. Bad guys don't call the police and say, "hey,I was about to commit a crime and
    this guy pointed a gun at me." Give the police some credit for being able to sort things out.
    Last edited by Snub44; February 3rd, 2013 at 07:39 AM.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Contrary to popular belief, when you fear for your life and you draw your gun, that is NOT brandishing.

    If drawing your weapon forces the bad guys to back off, that's great...you have accomplished what you set out to do...defend yourself with a gun.

    If you are forced to shoot, then shoot.

    If you don't have to shoot, that is much better,cheaper, and easier to live with.
    I agree.

    And just to add something for consideration:

    Remember the guy who tried to quiet a party next door and ended up shooting and killing a neighbor? He kept stating, on a video, " I am standing my ground here" and "my life is in danger" hoping to demonstrate he was lawful in his actions because of the Texas SYG law. He's doing 40 years.

    Raul Rodriguez, 47, faced a minimum of five years and a maximum of life in prison

    My point is that what I consider "fear for my life" better be something I can explain to a jury and they agree with my assessment of the situation.

    ETA - I'd still rather be in the courtroom than taking that long dirtsleep, but the "fear for my life" thing isn't something I take lightly.
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  4. #33
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    Brandishing is brandishing, the difference in SD is that it's justifiable, just as a hionicide is justifiiable in a SD shooting. holding a gun in hand and pointing it at someone--whether rightly or wrongly--is still brandishing. The definition does not change because of the intent or reason.
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  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    I found this thread to be very interesting and the replies were well said. As far as I am concerned, brandishing is clearly more than just the unholstering of a firearm and/or the fact that the firearm may be visible, if your intent is to have it at the ready just before you intend to use same as your fears become a clear presumption of imminent danger. Brandishing is all of the above when it is clear that you are doing so to intimidate or "terrorize" someone else. It is being done during a confrontation of sorts where "imminent danger" has NOT come into play. It should also be recognized that what you or I think is "not brandishing" the other guy may then consider same and use his firearm on you with his presumption of imminent danger---this has happened and the last case I remember is a Xmas shooting in Bluffton SC two years ago where an argument led to the showing of a firearm in a waistband during the argument and the eventual shooting and killing of that person with the firearm in the waistband; the shooter is currently charged with manslaughter but the bottom line is that the original guy with the firearm is dead. In this case you can argue that the guy with the firearm did indeed intend to intimidate the other fellow during the argument but was not in any imminent danger. Personally, I will use every effort to avoid any possibility of a potential imminent threat confrontation, including precursor and active situational awareness, avoidance and evasion, if possible. If it appears that I am in a positon where all my options seem to have been used and it is becoming clear that, G-d forbid, I am in a serious situation, I will unholster my firearm and keep in my pocket or on my body in a position that is more easily presented yet still not in clear and unmistakable sight as I continue my avoidance/evasion actions--at least for me, this is not brandishing, this is common sense to meet a very real threat by someone who has his firearm at the ready or has demonstrated by his actions that he is approaching a point where I will have a very definite presumption of imminent threat and will use my firearm to protect myself. Last thing I need is for that point to arrive as I fumble through clothes and a holster to access my firearm.
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by USM1976 View Post
    Here'sa bit of information about intimidation under Texas law:

    Texas Penal Code Section 9.04--Threats as Justifiable

    " The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force."

    So, threats are justifiable under Texas law. If an individual believea it is necessary to threaten an attacker in an effort to thwart his intentions, the CHL carrier can do so. Police officers draw handguns everyday in an effort to persuade thugs to stop, and so can CHL carriers. BUT, I will agree with another commenter...call the police and make a report. Bad guys don't call the police and say, "hey,I was about to commit a crime and
    this guy pointed a gun at me." Give the police some credit for being able to sort things out.
    904 allows the gun to be used as a deescalation tool without firing. Drawing down without firining is considered a use of simple force to repel another's force. You need to be able to justify legally, what force you are repelling....like malice or beligerence coupled with closing distance or following you or digging hands in pockets looking like accessing something...etc.

    Just talking smack to me doesnt cut legal draw down unless he tells me hes going to kill me/wife whatever. With those specific words, I take at face value and draw down on him. In Texas, you also can be egging him on with smack talk coming from yourself. I suggest screaming the word BACK OFF or STAY AWAY at the same time or before drawdown to add an additional legal/tactical tripwire for him to cross. Once you draw, keep shouting it a couple of times to draw attention to yourself as the self defense good guy (witnesses) as well as to verbally and legally intimidate the bad guy to stand down now. Call the cops when safe and articulate clearly your legal justification (if it exists in your state.)

    To the OP: What does the law say you can do in Washington. Start there, Quote it in your post, and ask questions around the law in your state because that is what a prosecutor will use.
    USM1976 likes this.
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  7. #36
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    Ive heard if you have to draw your gun best be ready to use it. And no matter the situation call police to report it first as you will be the victim not the agressor. Im sure most probably have said something like this already. Stay safe and carry on.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixgun View Post
    Ive heard if you have to draw your gun best be ready to use it. And no matter the situation call police to report it first as you will be the victim not the agressor. Im sure most probably have said something like this already. Stay safe and carry on.
    The key word, sixgun, in your comment is "ready" to use it. There will always be that second or seconds or millisecond or even minutes where you are on the cusp of a presumption of imminent danger and drawing the firearm is for the intent of being "ready" to use same. My absolute presumption of imminent danger is that millisecond before the BG discharges his already-presented firearm--I'll be damned if, at that moment, I am going to be looking for my firearm. I really believe we are all on the same page as far as protecting ourselves--that is why we are all CC and why we write on this forum. Words on the forum cannot truly express totally and completely all the scenarios and all the possible situations that will bring about the use of our firearm; hopefully my comments are useful to some and the subject of discussion by others.

  9. #38
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    Can you draw so the BGs will possibly "Back Off?"

    Welcome to the forum..

    Archer51 said it well!

    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    First off, welcome to the forum.

    Now for your question. You never draw, unless you feel your life is in danger or serious bodily harm is imminent. If you draw your weapon, you better be prepared to use it. It isn't made for intimidation, it's made to save your life. if the BG decides to break off the attack and your not forced to fire, that's fine, but never bet on that being the case.
    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidnssbm View Post
    I'm pretty sure most laws say you can't brandish your firearm to intimidate, but maybe this means BEFORE there's a clear and present danger? Because I'm reading "more guns, less crime" by John Lott and he lists countless instances in which a situation was avoided by a CCWer brandishing their firearm. He states most of these go unreported because the BG dont call the cops and the CCWer doesn't either since crisis was avoided.

    So lets say some shady figures are heading towards you and your lady and do the classic "split up" and begin to surround you. When is it okay to DRAW? or can/should you ONLY draw when it's your life or theirs?
    The answer to this question is extremely state specific. You need to find out what the laws are in your state.

    Questions as this one are one reason why I favor mandatory training before the issuance of a CHL.
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by USM1976 View Post
    Here'sa bit of information about intimidation under Texas law:

    Texas Penal Code Section 9.04--Threats as Justifiable

    " The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force."

    So, threats are justifiable under Texas law. If an individual believea it is necessary to threaten an attacker in an effort to thwart his intentions, the CHL carrier can do so. Police officers draw handguns everyday in an effort to persuade thugs to stop, and so can CHL carriers. BUT, I will agree with another commenter...call the police and make a report. Bad guys don't call the police and say, "hey,I was about to commit a crime and
    this guy pointed a gun at me." Give the police some credit for being able to sort things out.
    Please look at what I put in bold. Because, I sort of suspect that while you can't be charged with that specific
    crime, there are others which you could be charged with. Bottom line, keep the words-- "In the Gravest Extreme" in mind.
    Use those words plus AOJ and Intent as a guide.
    Last edited by Hopyard; February 3rd, 2013 at 03:13 PM. Reason: correct "AJP" To "AOJ"; that is, fixed a typo
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  12. #41
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    While I dont think it would be prudent to draw in order to make the bad guys back off... You may draw with the intent to shoot and defend yourself. If your actions cause the bad guy to back off or change his intent... You are under no obligation legal or moral to shoot him. So at that point you can re-holster and report the incident to the police.

    Sometimes it's not just what you do... but how you articulate your actions...

  13. #42
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    These kinds of discussions are what make this forum great! Thank you all for your wisdom and advice.

  14. #43
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    While Fl has no statute against "brandishing" persay, here is the statute thats concerns using a firearm in a threatening manner:

    790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. {my highlighting}

    "Brandishing" a firearm to ward off a threat--if justified--would not be in violation of FL law.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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    I have been in a situation where several "youths" were flanking me as 1 tried to keep my attention (posted here last summer). I lifted & tucked the tail of my shirt behind my CC. Basically, all I did was shift from CC to OC (not specifically illegal in NC). They then decided that they didn't want to talk to me and left the area. I immediately called the local PD. The responding officer knew the "youths", confirmed my suspensions, & sent me on my way.
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  16. #45
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    I displayed my concealed weapon once while walking in the nearby State Forest. I was being followed by two thug-looking guys proudly wearing their gang colors. They weren't intimidated by my young but fairly large Black Lab who kept looking behind us as we walked. She was nervous. They were getting closer each time I glanced back & I was walking my usual fast pace. When I took a different trail they were still there. I merely pulled my shirt up & tucked it behind the holster, from concealed to open carry. The next time we came to a fork in the trail they took a different route than I. Were they intimidated by my displayed weapon? I'll never know. Did they mean me harm? That I don' t know, either. I feel they were in both cases. I reported it to the Park Ranger & he said I did the right thing even though that while concealed carry is okay in the park open carry is not. He felt I was justified.
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