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Can you draw so the BGs will possibly "Back Off?"

8K views 85 replies 56 participants last post by  chuckusaret 
#1 ·
I'm pretty sure most laws say you can't brandish your firearm to intimidate, but maybe this means BEFORE there's a clear and present danger? Because I'm reading "more guns, less crime" by John Lott and he lists countless instances in which a situation was avoided by a CCWer brandishing their firearm. He states most of these go unreported because the BG dont call the cops and the CCWer doesn't either since crisis was avoided.

So lets say some shady figures are heading towards you and your lady and do the classic "split up" and begin to surround you. When is it okay to DRAW? or can/should you ONLY draw when it's your life or theirs?
 
#3 ·
If I should ever draw my weapon I fully intend to shoot it. That said, the ole "it depends" takes over. I have never brandished my weapon, but pulling aside a jacket to expose a holstered weapon could be a possibility. For me, no certain answer, but I can tell you all about it afterward.
 
#12 ·
If I should ever draw my weapon I fully intend to shoot it.
I felt the need to clarify this a bit. This statement is a reflection of how I've conditioned myself to think should I ever draw my weapon. Thats not the time to think about what I might / may do. So I wrote it the way I've prepared myself to act.
 
#4 ·
First off, welcome to the forum.

Now for your question. You never draw, unless you feel your life is in danger or serious bodily harm is imminent. If you draw your weapon, you better be prepared to use it. It isn't made for intimidation, it's made to save your life. if the BG decides to break off the attack and your not forced to fire, that's fine, but never bet on that being the case.
 
#5 ·
Re: Can you draw so the BGs back off?

If he backs off before I shoot him, its a good day for both of us... but if I draw, I intend to shoot.

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#6 ·
Contrary to popular belief, when you fear for your life and you draw your gun, that is NOT brandishing.

If drawing your weapon forces the bad guys to back off, that's great...you have accomplished what you set out to do...defend yourself with a gun.

If you are forced to shoot, then shoot.

If you don't have to shoot, that is much better,cheaper, and easier to live with.
 
#7 ·
If I draw it's gonna be because I truly feel I need it and will be ready to pull the trigger. If they run off before I have to, that's cool - less mess for me. The delicate spot is not too soon but certainly not too late. If I'm being circled, I'm reaching behind my hip, if it's a creepy guy asking for a smoke I won't draw - I agree with Weeg, call the police even if they run off. Even if the BG doesn't report you pulling your weapon, you may help out the next potential victim by police coming to the area if they did intend harm and decided to move on for easier prey.
 
#10 ·
Too the OP's question, because 2 guys split up, that doesn't put my life in danger. I puts me on high alert, I might cause me to put my hand under my shirt and on my pistol.... but if I draw my gun because 2 poorly dressed guys split up, I might be seen as the aggressor and be shot by someone I put in fear of their life!

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#11 ·
A good friend of mine,and his wife were xmas shopping a couple of yrs ago at a mall.He said he parks his truck farther out,to keep it from getting hit by a car door,or scratched.Anyway,they were putting their stuff in,and he said 2 males,were walking their way.He looked around, and he saw no reason,for them to be walking towards them.He said they gave him a bad feeling.As they got closer,he acted like he was looking at something on the bottom of his shirt.He raised it high enough,so they could see his gun.They stopped and were talking to each other,and went the other way.Maybe that stopped a robbery,maybe not.He said they did call cops,just to let them know.
 
#14 ·
A good friend of mine,and his wife were xmas shopping a couple of yrs ago at a mall.He said he parks his truck farther out,to keep it from getting hit by a car door,or scratched.Anyway,they were putting their stuff in,and he said 2 males,were walking their way.He looked around, and he saw no reason,for them to be walking towards them.He said they gave him a bad feeling.As they got closer,he acted like he was looking at something on the bottom of his shirt.He raised it high enough,so they could see his gun.They stopped and were talking to each other,and went the other way.Maybe that stopped a robbery,maybe not.He said they did call cops,just to let them know.
He wouldn't have been the first guy to employ that strategy.

Is it the wisest thing to do? Maybe... Maybe not. But it worked in this case, and that's the important thing.

However, just be aware, doing things which may be of questionable wisdom, may also have consequences you did not intend. So, had someone (maybe even the badguys) had called the police to report a man with a gun... It could end up causing you some level of grief. You just never know.

For me... Even though it worked, I feel in that situation, it may not have been the smartest move. I would have likely confronted them with a command presence once they approached to within a certain distance and asked them what they wanted. Thus, putting them on notice that you are aware of their presence, you are prepared to respond, and at the same time letting them know in no uncertain terms that their advances are not welcome. I can convey that message without showing my gun, or putting my hand on it.

The next move would be dependent on what they did.

All of this is predicated on the fact that they are approaching you with empty and visible hands. Having their hands inside their hoodie or otherwise occupied with some implement which could be used as a weapon would dictate a completely different response.
 
#15 ·
I'm pretty sure most laws say you can't brandish your firearm to intimidate, but ...
Depends on the specific wording of your state's statutes. They vary, from state to state.

Generally speaking, in most states you're justified whenever you are at legitimate risk of loss of life or crippling injury such that you believe your actions are reasonable to stop that threat.

While I haven't reviewed all states' use-of-force statutes, nearly all I have seen make no distinction between drawing and actually firing. They simply state that you're either being legitimately threatened with loss of life or serious injury, or you're not. If so, you should have no problem drawing, even if it turns out you end up not firing for whatever reason (ie, the felon flees or goes instantly compliant the moment you draw).

Most states have brandishing/menacing type statutes that cover unjustifiable presentation of a weapon against another. I suppose that in states where there's no brandishing/menacing statutes and no distinction in the use-of-force statutes regarding drawing/preparing in advance of firing, then you might be willing to be a test case with respect to drawing anyway, short of your life being on the line. I wouldn't suggest doing so, for all the good that might do you.

A key is usually the "reasonable man" standard that's in most use-of-force statutes, whether you reasonably believed the threat was legitimate and real, and that you were thereby justified in taking steps to stop the threat.

Keep in mind that such "reasonableness" language in the statutes basically mean that the DA, GJ and other jurors are going to be the ones who determine whether your actions at the time were reasonable, to their way of thinking, based on what they know from the reports/witnesses. Obviously, their view might well differ from yours at the time. Unless you enjoy publicly paid for "three hots and a cot," you need to be sure the threat is legitimate and your actions are indeed reasonable per the statutes.

Something for consideration, beyond your statutes: The Deadly Force Triangle, A.O.J.

Suggested reading:

  • In The Gravest Extreme, by Massad Ayoob.
  • Washington State Gun Rights and Responsibilities, by Dave Workman.
  • And, of course, the Washington State statutes, specifically for use-of-force but also all of the firearms and CHL-related laws: RCW 9A.16 and RCW 9.41, among others.
 
#16 ·
"Brandishing" is a pejorative term, with an almost universally negative connotation.

If I legitimately believe I am in imminent danger of serious physical harm and I draw my weapon, that is not "brandishing" - that's making ready.

If there is a bunch of punks outside my store hassling customers and I walk out to chase them away with my gun in my hand, that will probably be considered "brandishing."

Those aren't absolute definitions, just reasonable examples. See the difference?
 
#17 ·
Here'sa bit of information about intimidation under Texas law:

Texas Penal Code Section 9.04--Threats as Justifiable

" The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force."

So, threats are justifiable under Texas law. If an individual believea it is necessary to threaten an attacker in an effort to thwart his intentions, the CHL carrier can do so. Police officers draw handguns everyday in an effort to persuade thugs to stop, and so can CHL carriers. BUT, I will agree with another commenter...call the police and make a report. Bad guys don't call the police and say, "hey,I was about to commit a crime and
this guy pointed a gun at me." Give the police some credit for being able to sort things out.
 
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#31 · (Edited)
...to be correct, the first sentence under the quote should say "So threats are justifiable under Texas law if the use of force is justifiable under the above chapter." It's not what we believe is necessary that justifies us...it's are the ACTIONS of the BG fitting what the LAW says justifies the use of force...

...in other words...if I use my weapon to threaten someone...I must be able to find in Chapter 9 a passage that I can point to and say "He was doing THIS...and this law said the use of force is justified when someone does THIS."
...I cannot use my weapon to threaten him when his actions have not justified my USING my weapon...it sounds like a picky difference...but it's a BIG difference...and understanding it will keep us out of trouble...as police officers, we had a lot more "wiggle room" in presenting our weapons than does the average citizen...and that was a good thing...
 
#18 ·
It would be hard to draw and not to shoot based on the countless hours of practice drawing and shooting that I have done over the years. Yep, If I draw the prep will get at least two rounds center mass.
 
#20 ·
Are you saying that if you draw your gun and the bad guy immediately puts his arms above his head and screams, "Don't shoot! Don't Shoot!" you're going to go ahead and shoot him?
 
#19 ·
Anytime you draw your firearm in SD, you open up a can of worms. Be prepared to eat worms.
 
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#22 ·
I've had to draw my gun several times in my life and every time the BG ran away from me as fast as they could run and I've never had to fire a single shot to get rid of them. All criminals are cowards at heart and only want to attack the helpless people.
 
#24 ·
I've had to draw my gun several times in my life and every time the BG ran away from me as fast as they could run and I've never had to fire a single shot to get rid of them. All criminals are cowards at heart and only want to attack the helpless people.
Well, at least the few you've encountered happened to be. The pair who attacked me also gave it up immediately upon me drawing, as well. But bona fide baddies are indeed out there; you and I just haven't seen 'em yet.
 
#23 ·
Pulling a gun is self defense is a serious, life changing matter. That being said, if you pull your gun, you better be prepared to shoot. If the situation has gotten to the point you honestly feel you are in fear for you life, it's time to defend yourself. Don't pull a gun to threaten.
 
#25 ·
Self DEFENSE is, IMHO, only a matter of preparation & awareness. Once I have determined that the threshold to defend myself has been reached, I am no longer in a defensive mode or mindset. I am now on the OFFENSIVE & my goal is now to force my aggressor to respond to what I am doing. No one "blocks" their way to victory in a fistfight & no one wins a gunfight with their gun...still in their holster. If you believe you must defend yourself, then go on the offensive and...draw your handgun. That is not, by legal definition, brandishing.
 
#26 ·
+1,000

I hate to use the word offensive mindset in mixed company because so many underinformed people will have a tendency to misconstrue what that really means. But you've said it quite well.

Just the word defense instills a negative connotation to hold in your mind. If your mind is processing words like defense, defensive, and blocking strikes you're already behind the curve. Yet, in order to stay in "good graces" as far as the law is concerned, we can not be seen as the aggressor. However, in a life or death fight, you better be aggressive and offensive in the fight or you're the loser.

Too many people, as well as the legal community look at an Offensive Mindset as a bad thing. It is not.
 
#27 ·
You draw only when you feel your life is in danger, Period. And when you draw you should be prepared to fire if necessary. You don't draw simply to avoid a situation that hasn't happened yet. After you draw, the BG's my decide to disengage, which is what Lott was referring to.
 
#28 ·
Of course waiting doesnt mean waiting until you have a knife at your throat or a gun drawn on you.
If I draw it Im a very short hair from firing. BG makes use of that short hair to back off or not is up to BG.
 
#29 ·
If you are going to draw your weapon: 1-there is demonstrated hostile intent by the BG(s); 2-you believe your life (or that of loved ones) is in danger; 3-you intend to pull the trigger to defend yourself and others.

However, in the course of the draw (or even after), the same BG(s) decides to run away then they are no longer a threat and your life (or that of others) is no longer in danger.

If you decide to draw your weapon "to scare someone" and none of the conditions from the first paragraph above apply--then you are menacing and you are committing a crime.

Draw you weapon to defend, NOT scare.
 
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#30 ·
My gun was used in defense once,yet I never drew or fired a shot. I posted the story here but long story short thought I was being set up for a robbery at a gas station in the middle of nowhere Arkansas and I placed my hand on my pistol and the guy decided to move on.

______
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#33 ·
Brandishing is brandishing, the difference in SD is that it's justifiable, just as a hionicide is justifiiable in a SD shooting. holding a gun in hand and pointing it at someone--whether rightly or wrongly--is still brandishing. The definition does not change because of the intent or reason.
 
#34 ·
I found this thread to be very interesting and the replies were well said. As far as I am concerned, brandishing is clearly more than just the unholstering of a firearm and/or the fact that the firearm may be visible, if your intent is to have it at the ready just before you intend to use same as your fears become a clear presumption of imminent danger. Brandishing is all of the above when it is clear that you are doing so to intimidate or "terrorize" someone else. It is being done during a confrontation of sorts where "imminent danger" has NOT come into play. It should also be recognized that what you or I think is "not brandishing" the other guy may then consider same and use his firearm on you with his presumption of imminent danger---this has happened and the last case I remember is a Xmas shooting in Bluffton SC two years ago where an argument led to the showing of a firearm in a waistband during the argument and the eventual shooting and killing of that person with the firearm in the waistband; the shooter is currently charged with manslaughter but the bottom line is that the original guy with the firearm is dead. In this case you can argue that the guy with the firearm did indeed intend to intimidate the other fellow during the argument but was not in any imminent danger. Personally, I will use every effort to avoid any possibility of a potential imminent threat confrontation, including precursor and active situational awareness, avoidance and evasion, if possible. If it appears that I am in a positon where all my options seem to have been used and it is becoming clear that, G-d forbid, I am in a serious situation, I will unholster my firearm and keep in my pocket or on my body in a position that is more easily presented yet still not in clear and unmistakable sight as I continue my avoidance/evasion actions--at least for me, this is not brandishing, this is common sense to meet a very real threat by someone who has his firearm at the ready or has demonstrated by his actions that he is approaching a point where I will have a very definite presumption of imminent threat and will use my firearm to protect myself. Last thing I need is for that point to arrive as I fumble through clothes and a holster to access my firearm.
 
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