Can you draw so the BGs will possibly "Back Off?" - Page 5

Can you draw so the BGs will possibly "Back Off?"

This is a discussion on Can you draw so the BGs will possibly "Back Off?" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by dwyermw +1 for kelcarry comments: Let's see if I can succinctly create a simplified version: 1. Two individuals approach my general area ...

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Thread: Can you draw so the BGs will possibly "Back Off?"

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwyermw View Post
    +1 for kelcarry comments: Let's see if I can succinctly create a simplified version:
    1. Two individuals approach my general area in a situation where it does not appear that they need to be there. They come within a personal area.
    2. I verbally command and make a move to my gun side which is evident to the individuals. They continue to come toward me.
    3. I now grip my firearm and pull from my holster to low ready, continuing to verbally command the aggressors.
    4. With two individuals, continuing to come to me, clearly risking their lives knowing I am prepared to shoot, if they now enter an attack position, I go ugly early and shoot. Everyone reading this blog needs to come to grips with what steps they will take. "Brandishing" is part of the defense process and while aggravated assault witha firmearm is , in most states, a non negoitiable, 3 year sentence, i will take my chances at that point in court. A random attack on someone like myself, at the sporting event, or mall whre I am at, is going to be perpetrated by someone who has a long history of issues.
    Learned something interesting in my CCL class the other day. Supposedly, if the person coming at me is my equal or older, slower, and not showing a deadly weapon or skill, I'm pretty much screwed if I pull my weapon. The moment that person produces a weapon of any kind, or says something like, "I'm a cage fighter," or gets into a martial arts stance, or etc. etc., it's no longer a battle of equals and I'm okay to pull my weapon.


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidnssbm View Post
    With regards to my original post, there is a FAQ in the WA STATE GUN RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES book by DAVE WORKMAN that asks "what if I only display a firearm and do not fire a shot? Should I still call the police?"

    The author basically says to do so, so that the BG does not report a "nut with a gun" before you report the truth. But he does not say anything about this judgement. But since he says to call the cops, I assume its because it was entirely legal? Because the original question asks about "displaying" your firearm, not "drawing", and not "brandishing", which after this thread I've begun to realize has a negativee connotation, whether an accurate description or not.

    Side note: Washington is legally an open carry state, but is NOT protected by the law in stone. Basically as long as you open carry in a manner and area that does not "warrant alarm in a reasonable person" you're fine.
    I haven't read the work by Dave Workman, but I would say he is referring to either going from CC to OC, or drawing if you are actually in a threat situation. I seriously doubt he is advocating drawing simply to get people to "back off."

  3. #63
    MJK
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    The caveat with the "fear for your life" standard is that your fear must be based on a perceived real threat. That is, you should perceive an imminent threat to your life by someone who has expressed immediate hostile intentions, is in close proximity and has the capability to carry out his threat. A fear in response to anything less does not justify employing lethal force.
    [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. ---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

  4. #64
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmbr5ml View Post
    I would advocate telling the approaching person(s) to back off, in a loud and authoritative tone, instead of trying to communicate this by reaching for a gun.
    I did not say so in my various repetitive replies but when I discussed evade, avoid etc, I also should have mentioned something that was emphasized to me by my instructor; that during your evasive and avoidance actions you should be shouting "loud and authoritative" comments indicating that you do not wish to get into a confrontation. These words, said loudly, not only warn the BGs (which probably means little to them) but it, hopefully, informs anyone else who is around of your desire not to confront these people who have you concerned; these other people are called witnesses should you be required to use your firearm.

  5. #65
    AOK
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    I did not say so in my various repetitive replies but when I discussed evade, avoid etc, I also should have mentioned something that was emphasized to me by my instructor; that during your evasive and avoidance actions you should be shouting "loud and authoritative" comments indicating that you do not wish to get into a confrontation. These words, said loudly, not only warn the BGs (which probably means little to them) but it, hopefully, informs anyone else who is around of your desire not to confront these people who have you concerned; these other people are called witnesses should you be required to use your firearm.
    Many instructors recommend your dialog should be pre programmed as well so you don't get caught up in the ruse or conversation (which is exactly what a bg would want). Rather when your dialog is on "cruise control" you focus can remain on reading unknown contacts intent by focusing on their actions, what they are doing, and moving properly to avoid being flaked from behind.

  6. #66
    VIP Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    I had a long, drawn-out response to a virtually identical thread that I decided not to retype.

    In short, the OP and anyone else asking this question need to become intimately familiar with the laws regarding the use of force (including any statutes relevant to 'brandishing'), use of deadly force (no, they are not the same thing), murder, and assault in their state. This includes both statutory and case law.

    A good idea would be to develop your own use of force continuum based on your state's laws. Understand exactly what justification you must have to threaten force, what level of force is appropriate to what threat, and what justification you must have to use force.

    The most important universal issue here is this: Be able to articulate a reason why any other person in your same situation would have done the same thing.
    TVJ likes this.
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  7. #67
    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    As far as Im concerned, my gun doesnt come out if its not going to be shot. If its painfully obvious that they mean to do you harm if you dont hand over the wallet, then absolutely draw and tell them to start marching.
    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.--->Herbert Spencer

    Springfield xd 45, Sig Sauer SP2022(9mm),Remington 700(.308), Yugo M10 variant w/IZH Kobra optic,...and lots of ammo for all of 'em.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckusaret View Post
    It would be hard to draw and not to shoot based on the countless hours of practice drawing and shooting that I have done over the years. Yep, If I draw the prep will get at least two rounds center mass.
    Good thing your not a cop. Being unable to draw and NOT shoot, to me is just as bad as drawing and not being able to.

  9. #69
    Member Array wingit's Avatar
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    In your scenario it suggests a fear for your life due to wrong doing by a bad guy. Quite frankly my gun would be out and if they hadn't taken a steps back firing would commence. May be a little different if only one BG.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidnssbm View Post
    So lets say some shady figures are heading towards you and your lady and do the classic "split up" and begin to surround you. When is it okay to DRAW? or can/should you ONLY draw when it's your life or theirs?
    Once while fueling up (posted here) I had a BG charge me out of the bushes, pipe in one hand, plastic bag in the other, and simply clearing, and defensive posture was sufficient hint that I was not going to be a easy victim, and he ran away post haste....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  11. #71
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamRudolph View Post
    I had a long, drawn-out response to a virtually identical thread that I decided not to retype.

    In short, the OP and anyone else asking this question need to become intimately familiar with the laws regarding the use of force (including any statutes relevant to 'brandishing'), use of deadly force (no, they are not the same thing), murder, and assault in their state. This includes both statutory and case law.

    A good idea would be to develop your own use of force continuum based on your state's laws. Understand exactly what justification you must have to threaten force, what level of force is appropriate to what threat, and what justification you must have to use force.

    The most important universal issue here is this: Be able to articulate a reason why any other person in your same situation would have done the same thing.
    Glad to repeat your reply Sam--it is absolutely "right on".

  12. #72
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    I agree with hotguns

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by xsigma40cal View Post
    As far as Im concerned, my gun doesnt come out if its not going to be shot. If its painfully obvious that they mean to do you harm if you dont hand over the wallet, then absolutely draw and tell them to start marching.
    First off, the BG should never have gotten that close to you. Situational awareness, avoidance and evasion should be upper most on your mind in any scenario. Just not being somewhere that might not be a good place to be in the first place is paramount to your safety. If you still find yourself in a confrontation that you could not avoid in the first place and you have done all your evasion and avoidance, what will you do if the BG is already holding a firearm in his hand when he asks you for a wallet? What then as you fumble through your outer shirt to your holster and then refumble our from your shirt with your firearm? I'm sorry but in my book--you do this you are dead. At least in the scenario I have repeated several times, you at least have placed your firearm in an extremely accessible position after trying to avoid the confrontation before it could even happen and after it has started to happen.

  14. #74
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    is it pretty much safe to say any time a bad guy is waving a gun around during say, a robbery, he can be dropped?

  15. #75
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    Pretty much, if you want to take that chance.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

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