Coming home and you notice a police cruiser...

This is a discussion on Coming home and you notice a police cruiser... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by goawayfarm I'll throw a wrinkle into this situation......it is just to make you think 'What if?'....... here's the wrinkle......What if it were ...

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Thread: Coming home and you notice a police cruiser...

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    I'll throw a wrinkle into this situation......it is just to make you think 'What if?'.......

    here's the wrinkle......What if it were to turn out the 'civilian' was your neighbor who just caught the LEO in bed with your wife?

    Maybe you just shot the wrong bad guy.....
    That does happen, not infrequently, but it doesn't change much, from your legal end- you are acting in good faith, preserving the life of an officer in distress. I would assume you would be citation free, for many years..........

    Honestly, a shot, or a good club are the best answers. Provided you honestly feel the officer is in imminent danger, you have no responsibility to "apprehend" or "detain", whatever you do should be brutal and crippling, ie, "lethal"- again, you don't know what's going on, but Barney Fifes won't usually be given single-officer patrol, so the BG is really bad/really doped/or something similar.

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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    Tough call.

    I'm leaning toward "shoot him" (the other guy, not the police officer....).

  4. #18
    Member Array jowgafist's Avatar
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    Well if the BG was trying to get the LEO's gun then I would assume that the BG, once he gets the gun he is going to use it againts the LEO. Depending on position and if the BG actually almost has the gun or not, I will grab a ladder and climb on top and drop an elbow on the BG's neck. lol Seriously if I can avoid having to kill the BG I will but if left with no other choice I wouldn't hesitate to stop him permanently.

    I read an article where a citizen killed a BG that was wrestling with a LEO and the LEO's gun.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array hsuCowboy98's Avatar
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    Ive been in a situation very similiar to this, except on a lonely county road in the middle of the day. In fact it was the event that spurred me towards law enforcement.

    It occurred before I was 21, so I did not have my CCW or a weapon with me, a reason I soon began taking HTH classes.

    I wont go into details here, but if you want to know more I have links to the local paper writeups you may see.

    Needless to say, it wasnt 1 BG, it was 2. Both were hopped up on heroin, ad it was later found that there was a total of 11 knives on or about the 2 men, and a loaded 12 gauge under the front seat.

    My basic response was to let the officer know I was there to help, then I entered his cruiser and told the dispatcher that I was a civilian, that the officer needed immediate assistance, the exact location (within 100ft.) and that I was moving to assist the officer.

    She issued a call for ALL units in the area to respond. (a total of 13 showed up before all was said and done)

    I moved close to the struggle, told the second man to get on the tailgate and not get involved, then assisted the officer in subduing the resisting man after a lengthy struggle involving a full can of OC and multiple baton strikes. Once the man was finally cuffed, the officer instructed me to keep an eye on him, as he moved to arrest the second indvidual and search the truck.

    Approx. 6 minutes after the dispatcher called for backup, 3 DPS units and a county Constable arrived on the scene, going full code 3.

    Of course, I was the first person they were looking at as they pulled their guns and moved into the scene.

    After everything was said and done, the 2 men were both felons on parole, were in posession of multiple controlled substances, and were both on their way back to prison. The officer was alright, and got to go home, and I made it out just fine.

    Lesson that I walked away with: always be prepared. You never know when you may be called on to assist in saving someones life, even your own. This was a very convincing point for me to get my CCW.
    Fear No Evil.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    I'll throw a wrinkle into this situation......it is just to make you think 'What if?'.......

    here's the wrinkle......What if it were to turn out the 'civilian' was your neighbor who just caught the LEO in bed with your wife?

    Maybe you just shot the wrong bad guy.....
    I doubt then he would be parked in font of the house, with lights on. I also doubt he would be in uniform if he was in bed... its hard enough to wear the monkey suit for normal activities, let alone any "extra duty".

  7. #21
    Member Array walther1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hsuCowboy98 View Post
    She issued a call for ALL units in the area to respond. (a total of 13 showed up before all was said and done)

    Approx. 6 minutes after the dispatcher called for backup, 3 DPS units and a county Constable arrived on the scene, going full code 3.
    That was a FAST response time, especially in the country. Many times it can take longer. I bet that 6 minutes felt like 6 hours. It is easy to see why we all need to be armed and make good clear thought-out decisions.

    I enjoy reading and appreciate everyone's responses.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array hsuCowboy98's Avatar
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    That was a FAST response time, especially in the country. Many times it can take longer. I bet that 6 minutes felt like 6 hours. It is easy to see why we all need to be armed and make good clear thought-out decisions.

    Indeed it was. It wasnt so much in the country as it was a county road just outside a city.

    It did feel like forever.
    Fear No Evil.

  9. #23
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    That was just the point I was going to make, 6 minutes is a looooong time to be fighting for your life.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by freakshow10mm View Post
    Get as close as possible and administer a DT headshot to the BG. etc. etc.
    I agree. The officer was "screaming for help" against a rather large attacker.
    I am the only one there who can offer help. I am not highly trained at hand-to-hand combat. I am not going to risk my life, the officer's life, and my family's life by trying to be "careful" with the life of this violent attacker.

    2) Why did you shoot him when you could have just pulled him off? I mean, you pulled him off after you shot him? Why shoot him, then pull him off when you could have just pulled him off?
    Because then it's a struggle between me, at 175 pounds, and a guy who has just been overpowering a trained police officer. If I get him off the officer, and he starts beating the hell out of me, the officer may well then just shoot him. So what's the difference? But we are talking, I would remind anyone, about someone who is in a life-death struggle with a police officer and evidently is not losing. It would be fair to expect me to go hand-to-hand against this person, just because you'd rather I didn't shoot him and end his threat definitively?

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tj1231 View Post
    Is the officer on top or bottom? Does he just need help restraining the guy, or is he losing the battle for the gun? There are too many unknowns for me. I would probably start with a boot to the BG's head, then help to restrain, but if the officers in REAL trouble, I shoot first, maybe a contact shot to the head just to ensure I don't hit the good guy.

    I think that these questions ("unknowns") are irrelevant. If there is a struggle going on between a police officer, who has a handgun, and any person who is willing to actually duke it out with a police officer, that officer's gun is never more than about ONE SECOND AWAY from being taken in hand by the attacker and used to murder the officer.

    My view, share it if you like, is that if the officer is in ANY hand-to-hand combat situation with the attacker, he IS ALREADY in "REAL trouble." How much realer could it possibly get? Any given moment is only one more moment away from having the attacker be armed with the officer's gun!

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLOLUCKY View Post
    The boot to the head would be a first reaction.
    a shot to the head a second and if in dire straits for the officer maybe the first action but not the first inclination.
    For all who offer "boot to the head," "maglite upside the head," or any other brawl-type response, I have to ask, what if you swing and miss, or swing but don't greatly affect an adrenalized, crazed, powerful man? Now he is aware of you, and as I already said, he still is no farther from the officer's gun than he was before. The cop may now be confused, thinking you are an accomplice. His distraction may result in him losing control of his gun to the attacker, and now both you and the cop may be shot and killed. Do you attempt the boot to the head with your gun drawn? What if you slip or get knocked down?

    There is far too much risk, in my view, of attempting to kick the guy off the officer. Too much can go wrong; it can fail to have enough of an affect; and every moment that the struggle continues is a moment in which the control of the gun can be turned over to the bad guy.

    i wonder how you/I would be protected by the city while genuinely helping one of a city finest if we actually shot the BG?
    You are justified at law in using deadly force against someone who is committing a forcible violent felony, right? Pretend the cop is your wife, and the guy is on top of her trying to rape and strangle her or cut her throat. You'd be legally justified then, so why not when someone is attacking an officer of the law, who quite definitely has a gun he might lose control of? If you are asking about whether they will hire lawyers for you, I don't know. But why would you NEED a lawyer in this case? Do you really think the city would charge you after saving the cop's hide?

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purple88yj View Post
    Get a hold of any available limb any apply as much pain to it as humanly possible (wrist lock, elbow lock, break bones what ever).

    I have no care of this persons welfare. First off, he is on my property, and I have no idea as to the wefare of my family as I have not been inside yet. Second, he is attempting to gain access to a deadly weapon, and I am not interested in being shot let alone killed. Hopefully breaking his arm would be enough to persuade him to stop fighting and trying to kill the officer or myself. Besides, if it is broken it can't be used nearly as effectively in a fight. This allows me opportunity to go for something a little more vital for a coup de grace.
    All of that concern about the deadly threat this guy poses, and still you are talking about just maybe breaking an arm and hoping that doing so takes the fight out of him?

    Why are so many people saying they'd opt for iffy half-measures here?
    The guy is fighting a cop and may get control of a FIREARM. The fact that he is fighting the cop is proof of this intention. This is not a time to offer a plan that may or may not succeed. Gunshots will succeed. Just get close enough to place them with certainty.

    Why, though, break an arm and THEN give the "coup de grace?" Why not just make the coup de grace FIRST?

  14. #28
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    Whatever it takes to help the officer.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    If there is enough light for you to identify a uniformed officer struggling with another guy, and if the officer is yelling for help, that very nearly eliminates any possibility of a mis-identification or "interfering with the actions of an officer."

    My gun is coming out for sure, and I would close distance as quickly as possible from a side-angle while yelling for the guy in the *insert color here* shirt to get on the ground. Whether or not I fire depends on whether I can get a clear shot, and whether the cop is being overpowered or not.

    It is entirely possible that my arrival would either distract or confuse the BG long enough for the cop to gain or press his dominance, and my help from there on would be limited to covering the BG while he's cuffed.

    If, however, in my judgement, I determined the officer to be in immediate danger of being shot or otherwise seriously injured, I would be forced to shoot the BG, either in the head if I could safely make the shot, or multiples to the body, until he stops fighting.

    Obviously, this decision would have to be made over the course of a couple of seconds. I'm not gonna stand there and play ref while they fight. If at any time, the BG gains dominance, I would assume (and justifiably so) that he's going for the officer's gun, and that puts the cops life in immediate danger.

    This is actually one of those rare situations where I don't think calling 911 would be needed. If I had the presence of mind, I might hit the speed-dial on my phone and drop it back in my pocket, but the fight could take a very bad turn in the time it takes to explain things to a dispatcher. And afterwards, I'm sure the officer's own radio would be more than sufficient to get more units on scene.
    Last edited by Bob The Great; October 26th, 2006 at 07:35 PM. Reason: I can't spell

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_db View Post
    Coming home I'd be armed and my garage door would be opened as I'd have opened it as I pulled up.
    I'd grab a shovel and whack the BG(?) on back of the head.
    I'd then draw and be in the ready position to see how it unfolds.
    That's battery with a deadly weapon, and could easily cause his death.
    Again, why not simply shoot him?

    Instead, you want your hands occupied with a shovel, and have to then draw your handgun once you've hit the guy but he didn't go down all the way? Now he is aware of you whereas before he might not have been.

    Since you're talking about a potentially deadly attack (the shovel), why bother with that instead of going straight for what you know will work?

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