Coming home and you notice a police cruiser... - Page 4

Coming home and you notice a police cruiser...

This is a discussion on Coming home and you notice a police cruiser... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; LEO: Shoot him!!! Me: But I might hit you! LEO: Just shoot at both of us, cause one of us needs some relief! My apologies ...

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Thread: Coming home and you notice a police cruiser...

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    LEO: Shoot him!!!
    Me: But I might hit you!
    LEO: Just shoot at both of us, cause one of us needs some relief!

    My apologies to a certain southern comedian, who's name currently eludes me.

    In this scenario, there exists a certain difficulty in hitting your target, however, action of some kind is warranted. This is not the time to be a witness. I submit that any affirmative action will be beneficial and warranted. Anything from blowing your horn, using the cruiser's radio to ask for assistance, physical contact, to deploying deadly force. Of course, keep your Aces hidden. The LEO took that job knowing he might be killed in the line of duty. You didn't. To fully commit your life to this fight is a personal decision.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    LEO: Shoot him!!!
    Me: But I might hit you!
    LEO: Just shoot at both of us, cause one of us needs some relief!

    My apologies to a certain southern comedian, who's name currently eludes me.
    The late Jerry Clower
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  3. #48
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    i wonder how you/I would be protected by the city while genuinely helping one of a city finest if we actually shot the BG? (I don't wanna drag the post off topic though)
    In MI, I would have been summoned by a police officer to assist in the situation, dubbing me temporary police power until the situation is handled. If the BG would have attacked me, he would be charged with assaulting an officer. This is due to the Hail and Cry common law that is still upheld in MI, when an officer seeks assistance from a civilian, that civilian is deputized until the assistance is no longer needed.

    Also, with our recent passing of immunity in self defense, he or his family couldn't touch me.
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  4. #49
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    LEO: Shoot him!!!
    Me: But I might hit you!
    LEO: Just shoot at both of us, cause one of us needs some relief!

    My apologies to a certain southern comedian, who's name currently eludes me.

    In this scenario, there exists a certain difficulty in hitting your target, however, action of some kind is warranted. This is not the time to be a witness. I submit that any affirmative action will be beneficial and warranted. Anything from blowing your horn, using the cruiser's radio to ask for assistance, physical contact, to deploying deadly force. Of course, keep your Aces hidden. The LEO took that job knowing he might be killed in the line of duty. You didn't. To fully commit your life to this fight is a personal decision.
    First name Jerry, sorry about the last name.

  5. #50
    DMR
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    Here is what one man did in Baton Rough LA when faced with a similar situation:

    http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/2340841.html

    There are about a dozen articles in the archives on this incident.

    Bottom line: perp wrestling and beating an officer on the ground, officer fires up into the perp 3 times with a 40 cal., hits him once. Officer yells for help. Homies stand around laughing. Our hero, coming out of the Autozone, who is in a neck brace and using a cain to walk, gets his 45 cal out of his truck, tell the perp to stop, then shoots and hits the perp 3 times with no effect. The fourth shot was a head shot. Incident over (except for the race card coming into play).
    Last edited by DMR; October 27th, 2006 at 01:08 PM.

  6. #51
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    I remember hearing about that, DMR. Wasn't the officer in some hot water because the guy was supposedly some upstanding citizen or some such drivel? Could have been a similar but different situation, though. Though IMO, upstanding citizens don't take on LEO's.
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  7. #52
    DMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    I remember hearing about that, DMR. Wasn't the officer in some hot water because the guy was supposedly some upstanding citizen or some such drivel? Could have been a similar but different situation, though. Though IMO, upstanding citizens don't take on LEO's.
    He was in hot water because the perp was black and the officer and the citizen who helped was white.

    At first the papers said he was a successful entrepreneur, which he might have been, but later it came out he had been convicted of and under indictment for other assault crimes. He had also been a boxer in college.
    Last edited by DMR; October 27th, 2006 at 02:04 PM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great View Post
    This is actually one of those rare situations where I don't think calling 911 would be needed. If I had the presence of mind, I might hit the speed-dial on my phone and drop it back in my pocket, but the fight could take a very bad turn in the time it takes to explain things to a dispatcher. And afterwards, I'm sure the officer's own radio would be more than sufficient to get more units on scene.
    I stopped reading here, so if this has already been answered, my bad.

    Bob The Great, I don't know about the local LEO where you live, but the ones here have emergency buttons on their portables, as well as a couple of large red buttons on their computer that calls out an "officer in distress." If those buttons are hit and nobody calls in a error code for hitting the button an all units call is put out over every department in the county.


    As for this situation... There are so many variables. The only correct answer I could possibly give is that I would help the officer.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I think that these questions ("unknowns") are irrelevant. If there is a struggle going on between a police officer, who has a handgun, and any person who is willing to actually duke it out with a police officer, that officer's gun is never more than about ONE SECOND AWAY from being taken in hand by the attacker and used to murder the officer.

    My view, share it if you like, is that if the officer is in ANY hand-to-hand combat situation with the attacker, he IS ALREADY in "REAL trouble." How much realer could it possibly get? Any given moment is only one more moment away from having the attacker be armed with the officer's gun!
    So you walk up, shoot the BG execution style without ANY escalation. Now you're all covered in blood, ears ringing, and the officer says "What the "F" did you kill him for, I just wanted you to grab his free hand so I could put my other cuff on him" Whats your response? You just executed a man in front of a LEO for committing MISDEMEANOR resisting arrest.

    My point is, that while all of us would try to help, the original post wasn't clear as to the whole situation. I would hope that we all know the appropriate response when we see it. For example, the other thread "Good samaritan video with happy ending" is a clear shoot first, no questions situation IMO. But resisting arrest happens all the time with no need for a shooting (well, maybe a need, but no legal defense for it ).

    If the officers gun clears leather and he doesn't have 100% control of it, BG=DeadGuy.

    I hope my response makes sense, basically I think you have to see it to know it.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by hsuCowboy98 View Post
    If you are physically fit, able to fight HTH, or have other options available, then by all means use them. If there is not imminent danger of the officer being killed, your actions will come into question.

    I dont mean to sound rash, but I deal with this stuff daily, and sometimes the "kill em all because theyre trash" method is counter productive and costly. Ive seen community leaders and meth-heads both attack LEO's one minute, and be crying piles of humanity the next.
    I understand, and don't mean to diminish the validity of your experience.
    I am just offering a different viewpoint.
    I think it would be unwise for a person who is not trained in disarming techniques, or hand-to-hand combat, to attempt to get down and dirty with this suspect. I think that an attempt to muscle this out would be prone to disaster -- after all, even the trained cop is having a bad time of it -- and using a gun would be far less likely to end badly for the cop and the helpful civilian.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by tj1231 View Post
    So you walk up, shoot the BG execution style without ANY escalation. Now you're all covered in blood, ears ringing, and the officer says "What the "F" did you kill him for, I just wanted you to grab his free hand so I could put my other cuff on him" Whats your response? You just executed a man in front of a LEO for committing MISDEMEANOR resisting arrest.

    My point is, that while all of us would try to help, the original post wasn't clear as to the whole situation. I would hope that we all know the appropriate response when we see it.

    Well, now that you put it all that way, I guess I'd just leave the two to fight it out in the bushes, tell the cop I hope he makes out okay, head on inside, crack a Pepsi and see what's on t.v.

    I mean, talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't!
    We were given no more or less in this scenario than we would be likely to know about it if we stumbled on the real thing. Yes, we would have to make our decision and go with it.

    The only real "safe" thing for us, if we don't want to have to answer for doing too little or too much, is to stay the F out of it!

  12. #57
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    I don't think we have to "stay out of it...", but there are real possibilities that this situation does not call for deadly force.
    Excecuting the attacker is very extreme without knowing all of the facts.
    That's why, in my original response (whack the attacker with a shovel), I opted for a less-than-lethal response.

    Let's change the hypothetical, for arguments sake:
    Turns out that the attacker was the LEO's brother. The LEO happened upon his brother, who was very intoxicated, and they started to brawl.

    Although they were brawling, there is no way that the LEO's life was in real danger.

    So, if you happen upon this and execute the attacker - the LEO might not be too happy that you just blew away his drunken brother....

    Bottom line, if you come upon a situation in progress, there is no way of knowing the whole story. Opting to use deadly force can have a very bad outcome if you judge it incorrectly.

  13. #58
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tros View Post
    Bob The Great, I don't know about the local LEO where you live, but the ones here have emergency buttons on their portables, as well as a couple of large red buttons on their computer that calls out an "officer in distress." If those buttons are hit and nobody calls in a error code for hitting the button an all units call is put out over every department in the county.

    That's entirely possible, but I've never been inside a police cruiser, so I wouldn't know. But even so, adding the 5-6 seconds that it would take me to get to the cruiser, lean in, find and hit the panic button, then exit the vehicle and close on the struggle might very well cost the officer his life. It requires me to take my attention away from the situation and find something in an unfamiliar vehicle, while hoping that the situation that I am now not giving my full attention to doesn't take a change for the worse.

    Afterwards, by all means, make sure there are more units on the way. But as the situation was laid out, there isn't time to make a side stop on the way to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_db View Post
    I don't think we have to "stay out of it...", but there are real possibilities that this situation does not call for deadly force.
    Excecuting the attacker is very extreme without knowing all of the facts.
    That's why, in my original repsonse (whack the attacker with a shovel), I opted for a less-than-lethal response.

    Let's change the hypothetical, for arguments sake:
    Turns out that the attacker was the LEO's brother. The LEO happened upon his brother, who was very intoxicated, and they started to brawl.
    Although thy were brawling, there is no way that the LEO's life was in real danger.

    So, if you happen upon this and execute the attacker - the LEO might not be too happy that you just blew away his drunken brother....
    There's no way to know this. The only information you have is that someone who is not a LEO is struggling with someone who is and the LEO is yelling for help. I agree that immediately using lethal force is probably a bad idea, but if the officer's weapon comes into play or if he goes for a choke/bludgeon (or any other deadly force), there is no other option. But until that point, verbal commands are all I feel you can do without putting yourself in the same bad situation as the LEO. I really don't want to put myself in a hand-to-hand struggle with someone whose abilities I don't know (and in my case, he outweighs me by about 40lb).

  14. #59
    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    Tire iron to the head. No way I draw unless I'm taking a shot and no way I'm taking a shot unless the separate as there is WAY WAY WAY too much chance of over penetration or just plain missing.

    If the presumably BG backed off and then came back, I would draw and shoot. If the BG got control of the weapon even after I tire ironed him, I would risk a shot too, but not until then.

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    I'll throw a wrinkle into this situation......it is just to make you think 'What if?'.......

    here's the wrinkle......What if it were to turn out the 'civilian' was your neighbor who just caught the LEO in bed with your wife?

    Maybe you just shot the wrong bad guy.....

    I'd say you have a pretty kinky wife...
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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