October 27th, 2006 07:53 PM
I challenge the idea that a hit on the head with a shovel qualifies as a "less-than-lethal" option.
Originally Posted by steve_db
In a different situation, in which you were a criminal who had attacked someone with a shovel, they would charge you with attempted murder, and battery with a deadly weapon. They would not be regarding the shovel as something unlikely to cause death.
I do hope you are kidding.
Let's change the hypothetical, for arguments sake:
Turns out that the attacker was the LEO's brother. The LEO happened upon his brother, who was very intoxicated, and they started to brawl.
Although they were brawling, there is no way that the LEO's life was in real danger.
Brothers never kill brothers in drunken rages?!
I reiterate that what we are dealing with is a fight in which one combatant is armed with a firearm that is in jeopardy of being taken from him and used against the officer, YOU, or both of you. And for what it's worth, you have no idea of whether the fact that they are brothers would stop the enraged drunken one from shooting his sober cop brother to death. You really don't. Crimes more horrific than that have been committed.
My point is that you, even though you are lending aid, have a responsibility and a right to assure your own safety. Opting to use nonlethal force against someone who may well come up with a gun in his hand may screw you in the end, and by the time you find out that yeah, you should've just shot him, he may be shooting you.
Bottom line, if you come upon a situation in progress, there is no way of knowing the whole story. Opting to use deadly force can have a very bad outcome if you judge it incorrectly.
I will render aid, but NOT in such a way that I put myself at such major risk.
October 27th, 2006 07:56 PM
The fact is the officer did not say grab his arm. He said help me! I had acctually talked to an LEO who had his weapon taken and found himself looking down the barrel of his own gun. Just to barely in the nick of time his back up showed up and tackled the guy. The LEO is no longer a LEO after that attack.
Originally Posted by tj1231
The key here is, that the officer is in a life and death struggle trying to keep the BG from obtaining a deadly weapon. The bad guy is reaching for his gun. In a matter of 2 seconds the LEO may be killed in front of me (a wittnes). Fearfully I may be the next victim. By the way, this is in the yard of my house? My door to my house is wide open and I don't know where my family are? I myself have a serious heart condition and unable to take on a boxer. After warning the attacker, I just may have to face a jury of my peers and see what they think.
October 27th, 2006 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by katmandoo122
LOL! You're talking about dropping the tire iron and then drawing a gun on a guy who already has one drawn!!
That quick, are you? How many seconds do you figure might be necessary between when he get the gun into his hand, and when he lets a couple of rounds fly at the gut of the cop, or at you?
October 27th, 2006 09:37 PM
What is the problem? I well not stand by and let LEO die with out trying something. If you use the nearest tool, gun, club what ever just do it. This is past PC, no time to think pros and cons. I know a man that white eye a weed monkey with C-Rat can of pound cake why, because that's all he could get his hands on. If that man dies and you didn't try something you won't forgive your self!
October 27th, 2006 10:25 PM
As I see it, as given in the scenario, the officer is in grave danger of death or serious bodily injury. One thing that is common in all officer involved struggles / fights / interactions is that there is always a weapon within easy reach of both parties. In this scenario, the dirtbag (officer's brother, crazed PCP addict, crackhead, whatever) is trying to take the officer's weapon. Any person could REASONABLY assume for the purpose of using it. My opinion: deadly force is justified. I carry a weapon; I also carry the conviction to use it if and when necessary to protect a life. Period. I am NOT saying that I EVER want to use it, because I don't. I don't see any reasonable person wanting to take a life. But moreso, I don't want to eternally carry the burden of knowing that someone died because I didn't do what was necessary and right, even though I have the training and the means to do it.
As far as worrying about hitting the officer with your shot, 2 words: CONTACT SHOT.
Last edited by Only Glock; October 27th, 2006 at 10:36 PM.
When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle
October 28th, 2006 12:52 AM
forgive me for saying so, but I have no idea what that says
Originally Posted by SatCong
October 28th, 2006 02:04 AM
Weedmonkey is 1968 Cong from Nam, white eye, means knock out or unconscious. Other words use any kind of weapon you can get your hands on, to get the job done. C-Rats military field food rations. I don't think that you were in the military were you. Ps Sorry for the old slang!
Originally Posted by Bob The Great
October 28th, 2006 02:07 AM
oooooh, ok, now it makes sense. And no, I have not been in military service. Thanks for the translation.
October 29th, 2006 10:55 AM
I read a lot of responses to this post, and it took all the way to post #54 by tj1231 to get to the one that I consider to be the correct answer.
My response in the posted situation has to consider the courtroom battles afterward. I don't know what the BG did. Even though he is apparently trying to get the officer's gun, at the moment he is unarmed. My gun would remain holstered and I'll just pull the BG's hand away from the officer's gun and keep ahold of him so that the officer can get the upper hand. I'll probably suffer some blows, but I'm not convinced that lethal force is warranted, especially since it could send me to jail.
If I later find out that he has somehow harmed my wife inside the house, I might regret my decision not to draw and fire.
Last edited by jofrdo; October 29th, 2006 at 11:07 AM.
October 29th, 2006 11:13 AM
Not to criticize or anything, but have you ever been near two people wrestling or grappling or any kind of ground fighting? It's not always easy to get ahold of them, because they're closer to the ground and have a lot more leverage than you do. And in this case, getting involved H2H introduces another gun into the BG's reach. I would sooner just stay out of it than dive in and try to grab an arm.
Originally Posted by jofrdo
Still, coming out of the car shooting is an extraordinarily bad idea, both for target aquisition/firing lane reasons and situational understanding reasons. As I said earlier, the best solution that I see is to close and evaluate the situation and be prepared to take a shot if the officer's gun comes into play.
October 29th, 2006 02:37 PM
My weapon is deeply concealed. I have not drawn it and probably won't need to. I will simply assist the officer to subdue the BG. In the posted scenario, we only know that the two men are wrestling "in the bushes." We don't know they're on the ground; they may be standing. My response has to take that into consideration, but the primary goal has to be in making sure that the officer retains his gun.
October 29th, 2006 07:03 PM
Personally I wouldn't even waste time warning the BG, any hesitation at this point could mean that he would have time to get the officer's gun.
Originally Posted by walther1
Get into a position that offers you a good line of fire, then shoot the BG until he has been neutralized.
If they (the officer and the BG) were in a postion such that I wasn't confident on being able to make a clean shot w/o hitting the officer, I'd probably do my "kicker trying for a 40-yard field-goal" impersonation (in this case, the ball being the perp's head). A black-jack to the head would also bring a satisfactory end to the situation, but again, these options only come into play if I can' make a clean shot.
edit: another thought after reading through the whole thread:
There have been some posts regarding "what if the situation didn't justify deadly force?" One poster mentioned that this might have just been a misdemeanor arrest.
The point is, we don't know the full situation. In the scenario as it was presented, we see a man trying to gain control of the officer's weapon, and the officer screaming for our help. To me that doesn't sound like a minor altercation or a simple case of resisting arrest. It may have started out as something minor but has clearly escalated to a deadly force situation.
In this situation, I see only two options:
1) you can do nothing (not even really an option AFAIC)
2) you match the threat of deadly force (we can assume that the guy doesn't want the officer's gun just 'cause he thinks it's pretty) with deadly force of your own. AFAIC, there is no reason to specifically try to minimize the injury/damage to the BG. I'm not going to perform a coup de grace after he's ceased to be a threat, but I'm not going to waste time playing with joint locks and other techniques that might not work (the officer has probably been trying all this stuff anyway).
PeacfulJeffrey and Only Glock, Great posts guys
Last edited by KenpoTex; October 29th, 2006 at 07:36 PM.
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina
If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.
October 30th, 2006 07:33 AM
I didn't read all the posts but I do want to give my .02. I don't know about other states, but in OK, If a PO is yelling for your help, that is a lawful order and you do what you think is necessary to stop the attack on that officer. If You are armed, SHOOT! plain and simple.
October 30th, 2006 08:54 PM
Someone mentioned not knowing why the BG was fighting/wrestling w/ the officer...........
It's YOUR yard, YOUR family is hopefully inside and safe, but YOU don't know.............What questions should you have? Maybe the BG has his own weapon on him? You don't know.
It's a right now type of decision, that we can all talk about, but until it happens, we don't know what we'll do.
I do agree with whomever said they would immediately get on the LEO in-car radio to dispatch. Maybe the LEO hasn't been able to "call for BU".
I have been on many ride alongs w/ local LEO. I have seen people run for "I thought I had a warrant", or "I thought I was suspended". When the LEO catches up, the result is the same. The BG is going to jail or hospital, then jail. I know of a few situations that the BG ran, wrestled/resisted AND has a weapon on them.
I have seen LEO involved in scuffles/fights/wrestling/whatever you may call it for the dumbest things. BUT, rest assured that anyone that "happens" onto the scene, does not know why it is happening. If the officer is screaming, you can bet they TRULY NEED HELP!
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October 30th, 2006 09:21 PM
Ask the cop,
"Do you want me to shoot um"???
I'd say it with my Kentucky drawl.
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