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Coming home and you notice a police cruiser...

7K views 86 replies 40 participants last post by  golf97 
#1 ·
Alright, you come home and notice a police cruiser in front of your home with lights on. No other cars are present. No one else can see your home from the street (i.e. end of street and have privacy or neighbors are gone, etc.) Your family is inside the house, to the best of your knowledge, and, as far as you are know, is unaware of anything going on outside. When you pull past the cruiser you notice that the police officer is not in the vehicle. When you pull in the driveway you notice he is, instead, wrestling with a man in the bushes next to your house. When you pull up, you get out of the car and the officer is screaming at you for help. The man keeps reaching for the police officer's pistol, is somewhat larger (6'-200lbs.), and that is all the information you have. What do you do?

In case anyone needs to know, this is not hypothetical. It actually happened to a family member. I will not discuss how my family member responded but am wondering what you folks would do.

If you need additional details I will provide as many as possible, but remember all the details you have are just based on visual cues (i.e. you don't know if this crazy guy just hurt your family inside, etc.) and you have to react quick. It would be best to consider this your house (for sake of plant locations, door locations, fences, etc).

Thanks for the feedback!
 
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#46 ·
LEO: Shoot him!!!
Me: But I might hit you!
LEO: Just shoot at both of us, cause one of us needs some relief!

My apologies to a certain southern comedian, who's name currently eludes me.

In this scenario, there exists a certain difficulty in hitting your target, however, action of some kind is warranted. This is not the time to be a witness. I submit that any affirmative action will be beneficial and warranted. Anything from blowing your horn, using the cruiser's radio to ask for assistance, physical contact, to deploying deadly force. Of course, keep your Aces hidden. The LEO took that job knowing he might be killed in the line of duty. You didn't. To fully commit your life to this fight is a personal decision.
 
#47 ·
LEO: Shoot him!!!
Me: But I might hit you!
LEO: Just shoot at both of us, cause one of us needs some relief!

My apologies to a certain southern comedian, who's name currently eludes me.
The late Jerry Clower
 
#48 ·
i wonder how you/I would be protected by the city while genuinely helping one of a city finest if we actually shot the BG? (I don't wanna drag the post off topic though)
In MI, I would have been summoned by a police officer to assist in the situation, dubbing me temporary police power until the situation is handled. If the BG would have attacked me, he would be charged with assaulting an officer. This is due to the Hail and Cry common law that is still upheld in MI, when an officer seeks assistance from a civilian, that civilian is deputized until the assistance is no longer needed.

Also, with our recent passing of immunity in self defense, he or his family couldn't touch me.
 
#50 · (Edited)
Here is what one man did in Baton Rough LA when faced with a similar situation:

http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/2340841.html

There are about a dozen articles in the archives on this incident.

Bottom line: perp wrestling and beating an officer on the ground, officer fires up into the perp 3 times with a 40 cal., hits him once. Officer yells for help. Homies stand around laughing. Our hero, coming out of the Autozone, who is in a neck brace and using a cain to walk, gets his 45 cal out of his truck, tell the perp to stop, then shoots and hits the perp 3 times with no effect. The fourth shot was a head shot. Incident over (except for the race card coming into play).
 
#51 ·
I remember hearing about that, DMR. Wasn't the officer in some hot water because the guy was supposedly some upstanding citizen or some such drivel? Could have been a similar but different situation, though. Though IMO, upstanding citizens don't take on LEO's.
 
#52 · (Edited)
He was in hot water because the perp was black and the officer and the citizen who helped was white.

At first the papers said he was a successful entrepreneur, which he might have been, but later it came out he had been convicted of and under indictment for other assault crimes. He had also been a boxer in college.
 
#57 ·
I don't think we have to "stay out of it...", but there are real possibilities that this situation does not call for deadly force.
Excecuting the attacker is very extreme without knowing all of the facts.
That's why, in my original response (whack the attacker with a shovel), I opted for a less-than-lethal response.

Let's change the hypothetical, for arguments sake:
Turns out that the attacker was the LEO's brother. The LEO happened upon his brother, who was very intoxicated, and they started to brawl.

Although they were brawling, there is no way that the LEO's life was in real danger.

So, if you happen upon this and execute the attacker - the LEO might not be too happy that you just blew away his drunken brother....

Bottom line, if you come upon a situation in progress, there is no way of knowing the whole story. Opting to use deadly force can have a very bad outcome if you judge it incorrectly.
 
#61 ·
That's why, in my original response (whack the attacker with a shovel), I opted for a less-than-lethal response.
I challenge the idea that a hit on the head with a shovel qualifies as a "less-than-lethal" option.

In a different situation, in which you were a criminal who had attacked someone with a shovel, they would charge you with attempted murder, and battery with a deadly weapon. They would not be regarding the shovel as something unlikely to cause death.

Let's change the hypothetical, for arguments sake:
Turns out that the attacker was the LEO's brother. The LEO happened upon his brother, who was very intoxicated, and they started to brawl.

Although they were brawling, there is no way that the LEO's life was in real danger.
I do hope you are kidding.
Brothers never kill brothers in drunken rages?!


I reiterate that what we are dealing with is a fight in which one combatant is armed with a firearm that is in jeopardy of being taken from him and used against the officer, YOU, or both of you. And for what it's worth, you have no idea of whether the fact that they are brothers would stop the enraged drunken one from shooting his sober cop brother to death. You really don't. Crimes more horrific than that have been committed.


Bottom line, if you come upon a situation in progress, there is no way of knowing the whole story. Opting to use deadly force can have a very bad outcome if you judge it incorrectly.
My point is that you, even though you are lending aid, have a responsibility and a right to assure your own safety. Opting to use nonlethal force against someone who may well come up with a gun in his hand may screw you in the end, and by the time you find out that yeah, you should've just shot him, he may be shooting you.

I will render aid, but NOT in such a way that I put myself at such major risk.
 
#59 ·
Tire iron to the head. No way I draw unless I'm taking a shot and no way I'm taking a shot unless the separate as there is WAY WAY WAY too much chance of over penetration or just plain missing.

If the presumably BG backed off and then came back, I would draw and shoot. If the BG got control of the weapon even after I tire ironed him, I would risk a shot too, but not until then.
 
#63 ·
If the BG got control of the weapon even after I tire ironed him, I would risk a shot too, but not until then.

LOL! You're talking about dropping the tire iron and then drawing a gun on a guy who already has one drawn!! :blink:

That quick, are you? How many seconds do you figure might be necessary between when he get the gun into his hand, and when he lets a couple of rounds fly at the gut of the cop, or at you?
 
#64 ·
What is the problem? I well not stand by and let LEO die with out trying something. If you use the nearest tool, gun, club what ever just do it. This is past PC, no time to think pros and cons. I know a man that white eye a weed monkey with C-Rat can of pound cake why, because that's all he could get his hands on. If that man dies and you didn't try something you won't forgive your self! :mad:
 
#66 ·
I know a man that white eye a weed monkey with C-Rat can of pound cake why
forgive me for saying so, but I have no idea what that says :blink:
 
#65 · (Edited)
As I see it, as given in the scenario, the officer is in grave danger of death or serious bodily injury. One thing that is common in all officer involved struggles / fights / interactions is that there is always a weapon within easy reach of both parties. In this scenario, the dirtbag (officer's brother, crazed PCP addict, crackhead, whatever) is trying to take the officer's weapon. Any person could REASONABLY assume for the purpose of using it. My opinion: deadly force is justified. I carry a weapon; I also carry the conviction to use it if and when necessary to protect a life. Period. I am NOT saying that I EVER want to use it, because I don't. I don't see any reasonable person wanting to take a life. But moreso, I don't want to eternally carry the burden of knowing that someone died because I didn't do what was necessary and right, even though I have the training and the means to do it.

As far as worrying about hitting the officer with your shot, 2 words: CONTACT SHOT.

Charlie
 
#68 ·
oooooh, ok, now it makes sense. And no, I have not been in military service. Thanks for the translation. :hand10:
 
#69 · (Edited)
I read a lot of responses to this post, and it took all the way to post #54 by tj1231 to get to the one that I consider to be the correct answer.

My response in the posted situation has to consider the courtroom battles afterward. I don't know what the BG did. Even though he is apparently trying to get the officer's gun, at the moment he is unarmed. My gun would remain holstered and I'll just pull the BG's hand away from the officer's gun and keep ahold of him so that the officer can get the upper hand. I'll probably suffer some blows, but I'm not convinced that lethal force is warranted, especially since it could send me to jail.

If I later find out that he has somehow harmed my wife inside the house, I might regret my decision not to draw and fire.
 
#70 ·
My response in the posted situation has to consider the courtroom battles afterward. I don't know what the BG guy did. Even though he is apparently trying to get the officer's gun, at the moment he is unarmed. My gun would remain holstered and I'll just pull the BG's hand away from the officer's gun and keep ahold of him so that the officer can get the upper hand. I'll probably suffer some blows, but I'm not convinced that lethal force is warranted, especially since it could send me to jail.
Not to criticize or anything, but have you ever been near two people wrestling or grappling or any kind of ground fighting? It's not always easy to get ahold of them, because they're closer to the ground and have a lot more leverage than you do. And in this case, getting involved H2H introduces another gun into the BG's reach. I would sooner just stay out of it than dive in and try to grab an arm.

Still, coming out of the car shooting is an extraordinarily bad idea, both for target aquisition/firing lane reasons and situational understanding reasons. As I said earlier, the best solution that I see is to close and evaluate the situation and be prepared to take a shot if the officer's gun comes into play.
 
#71 ·
My weapon is deeply concealed. I have not drawn it and probably won't need to. I will simply assist the officer to subdue the BG. In the posted scenario, we only know that the two men are wrestling "in the bushes." We don't know they're on the ground; they may be standing. My response has to take that into consideration, but the primary goal has to be in making sure that the officer retains his gun.
 
#72 · (Edited)
...When you pull up, you get out of the car and the officer is screaming at you for help. The man keeps reaching for the police officer's pistol, is somewhat larger (6'-200lbs.), and that is all the information you have. What do you do?
Personally I wouldn't even waste time warning the BG, any hesitation at this point could mean that he would have time to get the officer's gun.
Get into a position that offers you a good line of fire, then shoot the BG until he has been neutralized.

If they (the officer and the BG) were in a postion such that I wasn't confident on being able to make a clean shot w/o hitting the officer, I'd probably do my "kicker trying for a 40-yard field-goal" impersonation (in this case, the ball being the perp's head). A black-jack to the head would also bring a satisfactory end to the situation, but again, these options only come into play if I can' make a clean shot.

edit: another thought after reading through the whole thread:

There have been some posts regarding "what if the situation didn't justify deadly force?" One poster mentioned that this might have just been a misdemeanor arrest.

The point is, we don't know the full situation. In the scenario as it was presented, we see a man trying to gain control of the officer's weapon, and the officer screaming for our help. To me that doesn't sound like a minor altercation or a simple case of resisting arrest. It may have started out as something minor but has clearly escalated to a deadly force situation.
In this situation, I see only two options:

1) you can do nothing (not even really an option AFAIC)

2) you match the threat of deadly force (we can assume that the guy doesn't want the officer's gun just 'cause he thinks it's pretty) with deadly force of your own. AFAIC, there is no reason to specifically try to minimize the injury/damage to the BG. I'm not going to perform a coup de grace after he's ceased to be a threat, but I'm not going to waste time playing with joint locks and other techniques that might not work (the officer has probably been trying all this stuff anyway).

PeacfulJeffrey and Only Glock, Great posts guys :smile:
 
#73 ·
I didn't read all the posts but I do want to give my .02. I don't know about other states, but in OK, If a PO is yelling for your help, that is a lawful order and you do what you think is necessary to stop the attack on that officer. If You are armed, SHOOT! plain and simple.
 
#74 ·
Someone mentioned not knowing why the BG was fighting/wrestling w/ the officer...........

It's YOUR yard, YOUR family is hopefully inside and safe, but YOU don't know.............What questions should you have? Maybe the BG has his own weapon on him? You don't know.

It's a right now type of decision, that we can all talk about, but until it happens, we don't know what we'll do.

I do agree with whomever said they would immediately get on the LEO in-car radio to dispatch. Maybe the LEO hasn't been able to "call for BU".

I have been on many ride alongs w/ local LEO. I have seen people run for "I thought I had a warrant", or "I thought I was suspended". When the LEO catches up, the result is the same. The BG is going to jail or hospital, then jail. I know of a few situations that the BG ran, wrestled/resisted AND has a weapon on them.

I have seen LEO involved in scuffles/fights/wrestling/whatever you may call it for the dumbest things. BUT, rest assured that anyone that "happens" onto the scene, does not know why it is happening. If the officer is screaming, you can bet they TRULY NEED HELP!

HELP THEM!
 
#76 ·
OK, I haven't read any of the responses and I'm going purely on the first thought that popped into my head once I finished reading the scenario... *PUNT* ;O) Gun as needed, but my first thought was punt, literally, a swift kick straight to the head.

Cheers.
 
#77 ·
The problem with "punt" is that it only works if they are wrestling on the ground. Not if they are standing.
 
#78 ·
True, but as I said, two on the ground, first thing that I thought of when I read it. But I would think my first reaction would be to do something physical like tackling rather than training a gun on the guy. Maybe would not be the best thing to do, but very truthfully it would be the first action I'd take without thinking.

I'm 5'10, 235 lbs and built like a football player, might as well use it. lol

Cheers.
 
#79 ·
Alright, time for me to reveal how I would react. First thing I would do, would be open the front door and yell inside to wife to call 911 and have her tell them "officer down". That will get the police to my home, faster than 45 minutes. Also, I will be able to instantly verify if my wife is o.k.

If police officer is still struggling and losing, I would probably take out gun and warn crazy guy to get on the ground. If he didn't I would ask officer if I should shoot.

If I surveyed the situation and thought the officer had a fighting chance, I would let them duke it out and not get involved. I would figure, it is his cat, he should skin it.

Now if my family wasn't responding, I would want to go in and take care of them. Afterall, if this guy just stabbed my wife and I could assist her so she wouldn't die, I would rather do this then wrestle with two monkeys in the shrubs.

Sure he may get away, but all the police need today is a crime scene and the smell of a fart and they can trace the guy to Hong Kong.

Just another way of thinking that I don't want to get involved if I don't have to.

Whenever I did something good for someone in the past, it seemed to me that I was punished for it. I have lacked going out of my way for people these days.

Hopefully this is not too offensive. I am still nice to everyone but do not go out of my way to help them, especially with a firearm.

Thanks everyone for responding! It is great to see that many people have many different opinions on this matter. Remember, the one thing you do is right for you. Also, in the heat of the moment the situation may yield a different response.
 
#81 ·
Sure he may get away, but all the police need today is a crime scene and the smell of a fart and they can trace the guy to Hong Kong.
That's funny right thar, I don't care who ya are. lol

Cheers.
 
#80 ·
KenpoTex said:
There have been some posts regarding "what if the situation didn't justify deadly force?" One poster mentioned that this might have just been a misdemeanor arrest.

The point is, we don't know the full situation. In the scenario as it was presented, we see a man trying to gain control of the officer's weapon, and the officer screaming for our help. To me that doesn't sound like a minor altercation or a simple case of resisting arrest. It may have started out as something minor but has clearly escalated to a deadly force situation.

[snip]

2) you match the threat of deadly force (we can assume that the guy doesn't want the officer's gun just 'cause he thinks it's pretty) with deadly force of your own. AFAIC, there is no reason to specifically try to minimize the injury/damage to the BG.
First of all, KenpoTex, thanks for the compliment about my earlier posts.

I am in full agreement with every single aspect of your take on this. (How often does that happen on an internet forum?!)

I bolded some parts of your post that I thought were most cogent. Specifically, it doesn't really matter, does it, whether this guy was pulled over for a taillight out or as a murder suspect: he is NOW fighting a police officer in a knockdowndragout, and the prize may well be the officer's gun!

So whatever it started as, it is now clearly a felony, and could have lethal consequences very shortly if not ended ASAP.

So I favor a contact shot, or an extremely close-range shot, whichever can be managed.
 
#82 ·
I'm 6'5" 285lbs and solid. Have also had some limited h2h self defense training. There are two options depending on the onsite evaluation of the officers true level of distress and my perception of the likelyhood of the perp getting the weapon out of the officers level III holster.

Worst case: approach with weapon drawn, if unseen by perp a pistol barrel to back or side of head and it's most likely over, if seen and he doesn't obey then he dies.

Most likely: approach from behind or side of perp. If I get my hands on or around his neck, it's over. Let Officer cuff him and then check on my family!
 
#85 ·
Worst case: approach with weapon drawn, if unseen by perp a pistol barrel to back or side of head and it's most likely over, if seen and he doesn't obey then he dies.

Am I the only one who fears a possible unintentional discharge occurring if I decide to pistol whip the attacker?

Granted, I'd be using a GLOCK, and if the finger is off the trigger, no harm should come of it. I just don't want the gun going off -- if at all possible -- and possibly sending a bullet any which way. I also am not enamored of the possibility of getting the guy's blood and hair on my gun or my person. I can imagine that a swung gun can easily open a wound in the scalp. I don't wanna deal with that. If there's gonna be blood, I want it to be on my bullets, not my gun, and I want to be far enough away that I don't get splattered with some unknown criminal dude's body fluids.
 
#84 ·
No question... if the BG is going for the officers gun, you end it with a contact shot to the head! :dead1:
 
#86 ·
You have no way of knowing the condition of the BG (high on whatever or not) but I would always assist the LEO best I can. IF other items are available, shovel, garden hose around neck, etc. use that to avoid adding one more person / gun to the mix. If nothing available, use gun. In this case, maybe a warning shot?!?! But in my CCW class they said if you are justified in a warning shot, you are justified in shooting the BG.
 
#87 ·
I would put a boot to the stomach or head, whichever posed a better target. After that I'd make it known that I am armed and ready to fire. Immediately following that I'd end it with a HS.

Communication with the LEO throughout would be great if available, but I know it takes a lot of breath to speak under stressful situations.
 
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