Restaurant Burglary- What Should I Do?
This is a discussion on Restaurant Burglary- What Should I Do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Dial 9-1-1...
February 13th, 2013 05:39 AM
February 13th, 2013 07:49 AM
Ghost. Yes it is possible the management would stand up with him but not probable.
I think it is 0-3 on this where an employee stopped a robbery with an undisclosed firearm and he kept their job for his effort. From the way the OP posted this is a chain restaurant so the corporate ownership would have the final say and would most likely say "drop him like a hot rock".
I do agree hard to say what would happen with this type of broad subject.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
February 13th, 2013 08:24 AM
OP: "As a manager, I have a responsibility to keep my employees safe as well as any customers who may be in the store."
No, you don't. You have permit "to carry" a firearm for personal protection, which isn't a permit to use it as armed security. Security is the responsibility of the owner.
Whether you can use your firearm in defense of others is a matter of state law and your morals. Some will protect others, some will protect only "loved ones." It's an individual call for each of us.
Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
February 13th, 2013 08:34 AM
in my opinion, so take it as you will. I will only draw to defend myself or my family, unfortunately I would instinctively draw if someone had a gun on me, probably to my demise and I am working on that, with that being said no job, no friend, no amount of money is worth me risking my own well-being over I know this sounds terrible on the face but there have been cases where people have drawn to defend a third party and it never works out when you interject yourself into other peoples business. I digress a bit but I don't think drawing much less firing to defend someone else's money is not wise unless of course that's what they are paying you to do. Just give the guy the money and try to be a good witness, now if he does not flee after he gets what he wants that is a completely different discussion
February 13th, 2013 09:38 AM
Those factors, combined with the physical on-site risks of resisting felony violence against you, and with the inevitable post-situation ramifications (legal, financial, social, employment), pretty much describe the calculus we must all go through.
Originally Posted by drummerboy51
The only real question is: given the realities of your situation and the specifics of the encounter, are you prepared to engage or handle it in a different manner? What are you prepared to lose, if things go wrong either in the situation or afterwards? Only you can decide.
Every situation is going to be different. Is it simply a verbal threat, with no visible weaponry? Are there multiple assailants? Has violence occurred yet? Is action being taken by the assailant(s) that is clearly going down a path that is likely to result in someone's death (ie, being led to the back freezer, forced to kneel as a group, etc)? Can subterfuge be used/leveraged, or can the attention of the assailant(s) be diverted? Are you all behind cover/barriers such that simply retreating to a "safe" area could be the best option? In short, how legitimate is the threat of loss of life that it fully justifies overt, sharply violent and decisive action?
Think it through. Evaluate what the likely ramifications could be, even in a situation where you handle everything perfectly and "save the day" without loss of innocent life. Then, evaluate what the possible ramifications could be, if anything goes wrong. Would you be able to handle the outcome? Would your organization be behind you 100%? Would your group engage in practical training on the issue of security and dealing with in-shop situations? Could you live with yourself (beyond any financial, employment, social ramifications) if the outcome occurred a given way, if you did or didn't engage and folks ended up dead?
Good guidance can help in this regard. I'd seek out one or more of the well-respected instructors around the country who help people work through the pros/cons of using deadly force. Massad Ayoob comes to mind, along with his book In The Gravest Extreme. Check out the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, including their library of articles/essays on various aspects of engaging in self-defense of yourself or others. Know your limitations, work on improving the odds (training, prep, procedural changes at work/facility), ensure you're on the same page with your employer (if that matters to you), get a good and competent attorney lined up who is experienced and successful in the area of defensing self-defense cases.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
February 13th, 2013 09:59 AM
It's going to boil down to a judgement call on your part, based on the circumstances of your situation at the time. But if at all possible, I would just give him the money and hope he left without harming anyone. The money is not worth someone getting killed. But if I felt that he was going to start shooting regardless, then I'd take my chances and try to get him first. Being sued by the attacker or his relatives would never enter my mind and luckily here we are immune to such nonsense due to our Castle Doctrine.
”Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security.”
February 13th, 2013 11:05 AM
If they only want the money just give it to them. its not worth dieing to protect the profit of the corporation plus they are probably insured against burglary. only engage if you feel your life and your employees in in imminent danger. Only you can be a judge of that. That is my $.02. Stay safe
February 13th, 2013 11:10 AM
1. Its NOT your money.
2. Corporate is likely to hang you out to dry (your GM may be a great guy, but CORPORATE will only see YOU as a liability.
3. Respond with deadly force ONLY if you feel your or another's life is in danger.
Ask him if he wants some Fries to go with the money
Scott, US Army 1974-2004
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan
February 13th, 2013 12:42 PM
Great insight guys thank you!! Ya'll have definitely given me some perspective on this. Honestly, I would just give the BG the money and hope he runs off and then call the police. I would only ever draw if someone's life was in danger. I never really had thought about the "corporate hanging me out to dry" part. I know the owner pretty well and I'm sure he would support my decision if something ever happened, but the people higher up in corporate may or may not. Thanks again for the solid advice!
February 13th, 2013 01:46 PM
"In the Gravest Extreme", just say those words whenever you are trying to think about shooting someone. Those are the immortal words of Mas Ayoob and the title of one of his books. If you feel your life is in danger, do what you need to do and don't worry about the employee handbook or your job for that matter.
A lot of the corporate policy stuff is for liability and insurance purposes anyway.
February 13th, 2013 03:12 PM
Nobody can really tell you what to do, or even what they'd do, until looking down the barrel of that gun.
Like some of the responders, I'd think about giving up the money, as long as nobody was being hurt and/or shot. If they take the first shot, and it doesn't kill me, all bets are off. I'm going to respond with extreme violence to protect my life, and the lives of my friends and co-workers/crew members.
The time to be worrying about your job is NOT when you're confronted with a critical incident. If you survive, and you're alive, you've won IMHO.
" But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... Baa." Col. Dave Grossman on Sheep and Sheepdogs.
February 13th, 2013 05:27 PM
If I were you, I would assume that resisting a robbery will result in your termination. I am not going to sacrifice my job to save a few hundred dollars for the corporation is likely going to fire me for doing so. I would sacrifice my job to prevent me or my co-workers from being beaten, raped, kidnapped and/or murdered. Dead men don't draw unemployment. Of course, you might not either if you were fired.
February 13th, 2013 08:33 PM
Ask the robber if he would like a beverage...
I have worked as a QSF manager, often on overnights and carried- against policy.
My take is it is not my money, the company pays for good insurance so they should get to benefit from that policy. Give the man the money and a to go cup.
Now if he is going to take hostages, or harm an employee/guest in any serious fashion, "F" the job; draw the weapon as casually as can be managed and fire. You will loose your job, maybe your life, if it is a really bad day, but IMO that is better than living knowing you could have done something but did not.
Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor liberty to purchase power.
February 13th, 2013 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by DFuller
I couldn't agree more. And always remember that no good deed goes unpunished.
February 13th, 2013 09:45 PM
There is no set answer, every situation will be different.
Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.
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