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Restaurant Burglary- What Should I Do?

5K views 35 replies 29 participants last post by  rjinga 
#1 ·
First off, just wanted to say that this is a great forum where I have found a ton of useful information! Great place to be!

Now on to the scenerio. I am a college student who has a carry permit, and carries daily everywhere I go (where legal). I am also a manager at a fast food restaurant. As a manager, usually the night manager, I have the duties of closing down the store, counting down the drawers and safe, cleaning the store, and overseeing a crew of about 5-6 people on my shift. As a manager, I have a responsibility to keep my employees safe as well as any customers who may be in the store. We are located in a fairly nice part of town, and are a fairly "nice" fast food restaurant, and in my 3 years of working here I have always felt safe. That being said, several businesses not far from us have been robbed recently, and that got me thinking. If someone came in and wanted to rob the restaurant, making it clear that they have a gun, how should I handle it? I always carry while I am at work, but I also know it's practically impossible to draw on someone who has already drawn down on you. Should I give them the money and hope they run and then call the police? Or should I try to defend myself and my crew members? Our registers can only be opened through either a transaction or a manager's override card. The safe code is also only known by managers. So I would be the one to handle the situation if he wanted money, since I would be the only one who could give it to him. I was just curious and wanted to know ya'lls opinions and viewpoints on how I should handle this if the situation ever arises. I understand that I should not try to be a hero and save the day, but I also want to protect myself and the lives of my crew and customers. Thanks for your advice!

Thomas
 
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#3 ·
OP, as one possible guide, you might consider reading the many stories of jewelery store owners who have defended themselves and their staff and customers when armed robbers attempted to rob their stores.

Other factors to consider are personal liability and court costs. If a robber attempts to rob the establishment you manage, and then either the crippled robber or the deceased robber's relatives sue you for damages in civil court (yes, this does happen) who pays your court costs and penalties if you lose the civil suit? Your employer or you? If your employer enthusiastically backs your defending yourself and your employees, in written company policy, that is one thing. If the company's attitude is that you are on your own if you violate company policy or maybe accidentally shoot a customer while trying to shoot an armed robber, then you may want to consider making the decision that maximizes only your own personal safety and survival.
 
#4 ·
Be certain the owner of the business allows you to carry. If something came down they could easily "throw you under the bus". See if your business has an established policy. Many companies will say cooperate with the bad guy, because in the long run it is cheaper than hiring an attorney to fight a court case, and then there might be a bleeding dead person in the store for a few hours. People mostly don't want to step over them to place an order. Also check your local and Stale laws. Here in Nevada, you can not carry a gun onto school property without their written permission.
 
#5 ·
The building is not posted, so people can legally carry in the store. As far as employees, the GM overhauled the employee handbook/policies this past summer, and I did see that there was a no weapons policy, however, I have not signed the handbook, nor have been asked to, as I think it is mainly for new hires, and pertains to hourly employees and not managers. The GM and I have actually had a discussion about concealed carry and said that he trusts me and doesn't have a problem with me carrying, but I don't know how the owner feels about it. I'm uneasy about asking the owner for fear of him saying that I can't carry.
 
#6 ·
It would be unusual if your employer doesn't already have a policy as to how to behave during a robbery. Usually, it's try to remain calm and give the robber what they want. That's what I would do. If a robber comes in with a pistol drawn, you are already at a disadvantage. If they just threaten that they have a gun, I would give them what they want rather than call their bluff. In a shooting situation, I doubt seriously that your employer will back you up.
 
#7 ·
Yeah, we do have a poster in the office that tells what to do in emergencies such as severe storms, injuries, fire, and robbery. And yes it is the usual give the robber what they want, remain calm, call 911 etc. I realize that really most times all they really want is the money and will flee after they get it. I just didn't know if there were any suggestions as to how to deal with the situation, if I should try to defend myself/employees, or just give him the money and call 911. I have never had to deal with a situation like this, and pray I never have to. I just want to be as prepared as I can mentally if something ever does happen.
 
#8 ·
In a situation like that it is impossible to guess at all the possible scenarios that could play out BUT....

#1 it's NOT your money and not worth dying for if they have a gun on you or your crew
#2 all losses (minus deductible) would be covered by insurance anyway but again...not your money
#3 most chain stores (fast food) have a Corporate policy against weapons because their insurance requires it (I'm not saying I agree with this but it is a fact) so even if you stop a robbery you would likely lose your job...after all it IS in your employee handbook

If they already are drawn on you and you don't have the reflexes and draw speed of Clint Eastwood I wouldn't suggest trying. However if they try to separate you or the crew to a secluded area or begin to escalate the situation you will have to weigh the risk of doing nothing versus the risk of taking action and nobody on a Forum can accurately tell you when that critical point is...you have to make that call

personally I would rather look for a new job then die because I was afraid of violating company policy


.....

We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the law breaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is responsible for his actions....Ronald Reagan
 
#9 ·
As long as they take the money and run don't do anything,but if they start herding everybody into the back I'm assuming it's to execute us,If It's me as soon as they leave me an opening I will react swiftly with maximum violence
 
#10 ·
Im sort of a hard head but I gotta go with give em the money and if they leave your way way ahead. Like Duk if they have the money and start getting hinky moving folks, seperateing them, etc etc I figure im dead anyway and will take my chance to take one or two with me.

In my opinion calm is fine but you want to try to appear to be the least dangerous person there so they dont see you as a threat. No steely eyed looks or obviously looking for openings. Dont appear as if you have the capability to even think about trying anything. Then if you do have to try to come from behind the curve at least maybe youll have a bit of an edge.
 
#11 ·
To me whether you have signed the handbook or not and whether you feel it is for new hires and not for managers you are aware of the policy.

One of the ways that this would be looked at is "What a reasonable and prudent person would do in the same situation". One of the factors that is first determined is was that person legally there or committing a legal act in the first place. I have to agree with the other post in that you would be thrown under the bus by the management.

Under the law of vicarious liability your employer is responsible for what you do on the job. He has given his position on firearms in the workplace and you alone are choosing to violate it. Should you take action, even though it saves the day, you would/could be held criminally and civilly liable. The claim of well I never signed the booklet probably would not cut it.
 
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#13 ·
Yeah if he just tries to head of the robbery they probably would. Regardless of that though if someone has a gun and is using it to commit a crime he has good claim to fear for his life. Now that doesnt mean go all Rambo if they will just get the money and go. But id bet a dollar to a doughnut that given the opening and he defends his life and by product of that is the robbery is twarted the owner will be standing smiling beside him in the photo ops.
What the OP asks really cant be laid out for him here. Robber could shoot the first person he comes to to make his point and then all bets are off. To many variables to call here on a forum you cant know unless your faced with it. Inaction may be best. Instant and violent action may be. Depending on what hes facing.
There is a point sometimes when dead is dead and the legalities wont matter much after that. Given a choice of pushing up daisys or the owner being upset Ill upset the owner every time.

edit sorry bad comparison since we now know Rambo is actually anti gun and a pacifist. Dirty Harry yeah thats better:blink:
 
#12 ·
Do you mean burglary or robbery? They are by no means the same thing. Burglary is theft plus trespassing. Robbery is theft plus assault. I wouldn't recommend using a weapon at all to stop a burglary at a restaurant. What are they going to steal, frozen patties? Just leave the area and call the police.

By your description I assume you really meant robbery. Most of the posters here have the right idea: give them the money. It is in no way worth it to shoot to protect the money in a cash register in a fast food restaurant. Even if you win the gunfight, just the cleanup will cost more than handing over the money.

What you would need to react to are:

Someone being shot for kicks, or out of hate, or panic.
Someone being sexually assaulted.
Someone being tortured to open up a safe or hand over more money.
Someone being used as a hostage.

In a holdup you want to get him his money and get him out of there as quickly as possible. So this is the most important judgment call you have to make: is this just a guy who needs drug money and is going to run like hell and go get high once he gets the contents of the register, or is he here for something else? Could be a guy with a grudge against someone who works there, could be a domestic dispute, or it could be a nut who hears voices telling him to go kill people in the restaurant. If you think he wants more than money, you know what you have to do.
 
#15 ·
This senerio was covered by my ccw instructor who was an active duty county sheriff and he said let them have the $. If he was off duty he would even let them go and get a good discription for the on duty cops. Most restraunts make enough that losing a days take isn't going to bankrupt them. And I agree with many of the other posters. You are walking a fine line carrying when your handbook says not to. Reguardless if your imediate manager approves or not.
Stay safe and carry on.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2
 
#17 ·
Ghost. Yes it is possible the management would stand up with him but not probable.

I think it is 0-3 on this where an employee stopped a robbery with an undisclosed firearm and he kept their job for his effort. From the way the OP posted this is a chain restaurant so the corporate ownership would have the final say and would most likely say "drop him like a hot rock".

I do agree hard to say what would happen with this type of broad subject.
 
#18 ·
OP: "As a manager, I have a responsibility to keep my employees safe as well as any customers who may be in the store."

No, you don't. You have permit "to carry" a firearm for personal protection, which isn't a permit to use it as armed security. Security is the responsibility of the owner.

Whether you can use your firearm in defense of others is a matter of state law and your morals. Some will protect others, some will protect only "loved ones." It's an individual call for each of us.
 
#19 ·
in my opinion, so take it as you will. I will only draw to defend myself or my family, unfortunately I would instinctively draw if someone had a gun on me, probably to my demise and I am working on that, with that being said no job, no friend, no amount of money is worth me risking my own well-being over I know this sounds terrible on the face but there have been cases where people have drawn to defend a third party and it never works out when you interject yourself into other peoples business. I digress a bit but I don't think drawing much less firing to defend someone else's money is not wise unless of course that's what they are paying you to do. Just give the guy the money and try to be a good witness, now if he does not flee after he gets what he wants that is a completely different discussion
 
#20 ·
As a manager, usually the night manager ... counting down the drawers and safe ... overseeing a crew of about 5-6 people ... several businesses not far from us have been robbed recently ...
Those factors, combined with the physical on-site risks of resisting felony violence against you, and with the inevitable post-situation ramifications (legal, financial, social, employment), pretty much describe the calculus we must all go through.

The only real question is: given the realities of your situation and the specifics of the encounter, are you prepared to engage or handle it in a different manner? What are you prepared to lose, if things go wrong either in the situation or afterwards? Only you can decide.

Every situation is going to be different. Is it simply a verbal threat, with no visible weaponry? Are there multiple assailants? Has violence occurred yet? Is action being taken by the assailant(s) that is clearly going down a path that is likely to result in someone's death (ie, being led to the back freezer, forced to kneel as a group, etc)? Can subterfuge be used/leveraged, or can the attention of the assailant(s) be diverted? Are you all behind cover/barriers such that simply retreating to a "safe" area could be the best option? In short, how legitimate is the threat of loss of life that it fully justifies overt, sharply violent and decisive action?

Think it through. Evaluate what the likely ramifications could be, even in a situation where you handle everything perfectly and "save the day" without loss of innocent life. Then, evaluate what the possible ramifications could be, if anything goes wrong. Would you be able to handle the outcome? Would your organization be behind you 100%? Would your group engage in practical training on the issue of security and dealing with in-shop situations? Could you live with yourself (beyond any financial, employment, social ramifications) if the outcome occurred a given way, if you did or didn't engage and folks ended up dead?

Suggestions

Good guidance can help in this regard. I'd seek out one or more of the well-respected instructors around the country who help people work through the pros/cons of using deadly force. Massad Ayoob comes to mind, along with his book In The Gravest Extreme. Check out the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, including their library of articles/essays on various aspects of engaging in self-defense of yourself or others. Know your limitations, work on improving the odds (training, prep, procedural changes at work/facility), ensure you're on the same page with your employer (if that matters to you), get a good and competent attorney lined up who is experienced and successful in the area of defensing self-defense cases.
 
#21 ·
It's going to boil down to a judgement call on your part, based on the circumstances of your situation at the time. But if at all possible, I would just give him the money and hope he left without harming anyone. The money is not worth someone getting killed. But if I felt that he was going to start shooting regardless, then I'd take my chances and try to get him first. Being sued by the attacker or his relatives would never enter my mind and luckily here we are immune to such nonsense due to our Castle Doctrine.
 
#22 ·
If they only want the money just give it to them. its not worth dieing to protect the profit of the corporation plus they are probably insured against burglary. only engage if you feel your life and your employees in in imminent danger. Only you can be a judge of that. That is my $.02. Stay safe
 
#23 ·
Bottom Line:

1. Its NOT your money.

2. Corporate is likely to hang you out to dry (your GM may be a great guy, but CORPORATE will only see YOU as a liability.

3. Respond with deadly force ONLY if you feel your or another's life is in danger.

------------------------
Ask him if he wants some Fries to go with the money :wave:
 
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#24 ·
Great insight guys thank you!! Ya'll have definitely given me some perspective on this. Honestly, I would just give the BG the money and hope he runs off and then call the police. I would only ever draw if someone's life was in danger. I never really had thought about the "corporate hanging me out to dry" part. I know the owner pretty well and I'm sure he would support my decision if something ever happened, but the people higher up in corporate may or may not. Thanks again for the solid advice!
 
#25 ·
"In the Gravest Extreme", just say those words whenever you are trying to think about shooting someone. Those are the immortal words of Mas Ayoob and the title of one of his books. If you feel your life is in danger, do what you need to do and don't worry about the employee handbook or your job for that matter.

A lot of the corporate policy stuff is for liability and insurance purposes anyway.
 
#26 ·
Nobody can really tell you what to do, or even what they'd do, until looking down the barrel of that gun.

Like some of the responders, I'd think about giving up the money, as long as nobody was being hurt and/or shot. If they take the first shot, and it doesn't kill me, all bets are off. I'm going to respond with extreme violence to protect my life, and the lives of my friends and co-workers/crew members.

The time to be worrying about your job is NOT when you're confronted with a critical incident. If you survive, and you're alive, you've won IMHO.
 
#27 ·
If I were you, I would assume that resisting a robbery will result in your termination. I am not going to sacrifice my job to save a few hundred dollars for the corporation is likely going to fire me for doing so. I would sacrifice my job to prevent me or my co-workers from being beaten, raped, kidnapped and/or murdered. Dead men don't draw unemployment. Of course, you might not either if you were fired.
 
#28 ·
Ask the robber if he would like a beverage...

I have worked as a QSF manager, often on overnights and carried- against policy.
My take is it is not my money, the company pays for good insurance so they should get to benefit from that policy. Give the man the money and a to go cup.

Now if he is going to take hostages, or harm an employee/guest in any serious fashion, "F" the job; draw the weapon as casually as can be managed and fire. You will loose your job, maybe your life, if it is a really bad day, but IMO that is better than living knowing you could have done something but did not.
 
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