At the Seven Eleven - Page 3

At the Seven Eleven

This is a discussion on At the Seven Eleven within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SIXTO #1. Like hell. How long would it take for him to aim and fire? How quickly can you react if that's ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    #1.

    Like hell.
    How long would it take for him to aim and fire? How quickly can you react if that's what it appears he's doing? (Will you wait without yet drawing your gun? And if you do draw your gun, there's not a bad chance that as he turns to leave, he might spot you standing there holding it. Why wait til then to shoot him?)

    I think I'd probably go with #4, actually.

    He's said he will shoot (indicates willingness to do murder) and he has presented a weapon. Anyone could legally use deadly force against him at that point, and morally, too. And I fail to see what is so important about giving him the chance to just go on his merry way with his loot.

    Jeeez, are we that soft on violent criminals, here?! That we think some good is served when we let them live another day to victimize more people later on?!


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soonerjh View Post
    I'd have to go with rstickle on this one, in Oklahoma all the 7-11's are posted no carry.

    Oooh, that kinda sheds new light on it.

    If 7-11 insists that I'm a bad man if I carry a legal handgun into its store, maybe they don't want my help.

    I suppose I might just draw, and fade back into one of the aisles, prepared to fire if the BG comes after me. Screw anyone else who thinks it's wrong to carry a defensive handgun.

  3. #33
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    boy thats a toughy. the 7-11 doesnt allow firearms, but yet the person behind the counter is only trying to make a living. should they pay with their life ( per say) because they work where guns are off limit? or they shouldnt work where they dont allow guns in the first place so they put themself at risk..? complicated.. i think i'd go with #4....

  4. #34
    Member Array ropinghorns's Avatar
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    #4.................. Me too!!!!!!

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    A big #4, near-contact range, back of the neck at junction w/ skull, angled upward.

    Can you wait until the clerk is killed before acting and still look yourself in the mirror. I buy coffee in the same few places regularly, and know most of these folks.
    Last edited by obxned; January 17th, 2007 at 07:54 PM. Reason: additional comment

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    #4 til reload is necessary. #1. #4 til reload necessary again.

    2amendment is based on RESPONSIBILITY to protect others in the community/state of the original 13.

    a) the way it was explained to me, if you ever point your firearm at ANYTHING, you'd better be prepared to shoot.
    b) before you're in this situation, start preparing the statement for the mother/wife/kids/etc of the clerk as to why you were placed there by god, whatever, with a weapon, and failed to act.
    c) before you're in this situation, explain to your mother/wife/kids/etc why someone might not have saved your life if the bg, being on drugs, just suddenly notices you sneaking away, and gets that lucky shot off that kills you, even though they had the opportunity to head it off.

    arguments i hear are:

    find cover...... sure, these things take like, entire minutes to play out. plenty of time for you to slowly figure out where to go and move there.

    not allowed the weapon on premises..... my money says this argument before the grand jury will not last very long at all

    wait til you see what he's gonna do.... i can't imagine someone performing an armed robbery that doesnt know damn well he's liable to get shot as soon as he brandishes.

    be a good witness.... to the LEO's out there... what would your impression be of someone armed in that store, explaining to you that they let the clerk die because they werent sure, they hesitated, they procrastinate? as an LEO, is that the kind of individual you want to have a CWP? someone thats lacking the confidence to do whats necessary shouldnt be carrying a tool that performs acts of finality.

    mistaken purpose.... if a "friend" is pulling a firearm in a public place.... i dont think theres a need to finish this argument, its ridiculous. collecting rent at gunpoint? oh. my. gosh. w. t. f.

    That is what I have always thought I would do in that situation. I made the decision a long time ago that if I clear leather then I was going to shoot. I would never give away the element of surprise by commanding the BG to drop the weapon. I would yell stop at the same time I would pull the trigger.
    damn straight.

    never forget the golden rule. Do Unto Others as You'd Have Them Do Unto You. that clerk, 99/100 times, is praying to whatever god/gods he prays to, that you be sent to save them. dont fail.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    The one thing that no one thought of is as soon you get the BG under control and have called 911 reholster your gun. When the cops arrive they might mistake you for the bad guy.

  8. #38
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    I think my reaction would be a combination of some of the things listed here:

    I would draw while moving to cover, shoot, then I might yell "DROP THE GUN"!........Then I would scan scene, checking for any other threats. (I would not yell before shooting, I would already have my weapon up & the act of yelling would probably screw up my sight picture. Try it yourself....it's hard to maintain your grip & target picture while yelling.) Besides, I'm not willing to give up any advantage in a fight & this kind of fight you don't want to come in last.

    After that, I would call 911 & check on any of the patrons or shopkeeper. (I would not call 911 first. That would be a waste of precious seconds & your attention would be diverted from the BG while fumbling to find/dial your phone.)

    Could there be a situation that a yelled warning could work? Probably....but in the close quarters of a 7-11, with the miscreant already holding a weapon. I don't think the perp deserves a warning at that point.

    I hope & pray I NEVER have to find out.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

  9. #39
    Member Array Nate's Avatar
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    I feel as if I would be forced to shoot. Not only because he may (or his buddies) try to shoot me, but third-party protection is legal in VA. I wouldn't be able to live with myself otherwise.

  10. #40
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    If the bad guy pulled a weapon then he has set the tone for the entire encounter. He has already stated through his actions that he is willing to harm and or kill for the money or whatever else he is taking by force.

    This requires an immediate and lethal force response. If he is threatening someone, be it me or someone in my presence with great bodily harm or death, I will pull and fire without a verbal warning or command.

    This is assuming that I have been present for the entire incident from start to finish, that I have not walked in on the middle of the situation. That would change things as I would have to asses the situation. Who knows? The store clerk could have taken the weapon from the scum bag and now be holding him at gun point and I would not know that coming into it in the middle.

    These situations all depend heavily on what you know to be fact and what you can only assume. Assumption will get you in hot water every time in my experience.
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  11. #41
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    Citizens of Patrol?

    While anything is possible, the VAST majority of armed robberies at convenience stores, 7-11's, etc. do NOT end up with the clerk or anyone getting shot. Most of the times the BG is just looking for easy money and not to kill anyone. Otherwise, they would just shoot and grab the money from the register themselves. Over 90% of the time, if employee cooperates, no one is hurt. This is why most banks DONT have armed security guards. Bank with armed guards wont get robbed much, but when they do, there is a high chance of violence.

    While it is an individual choice everyone needs to make, in this situation you must realize that YOU are the one escalating this situation to deadly force level. BG has pulled gun and demanded money only...Who is to say that your 230 grain P+++ kills the BG immediatlely? The gun is already pointed at clerk, he can very likely get a shot off just by reflex or clinching when shot. May be high on drugs and not going down easily. What if he is wearing a vest? And as a previous poster stated what if an accomplish is in the store. Or if you scan the store, an accomplish may be outside watching the door. What if accomplish shoots at you and misses and hits an innocent bystander? What if he comes in and shoots you. Now 3 people shot because you were doing your "duty" or "sent by god" instead of letting the BG get away with the $150 bucks from 7-11 and everyone going home to their families. I wouldnt want to explain the clerks mother/wife/family why I turned a simple robbery into a scene from "Heat". BG lives/clerk dies, you WILL be facing civil charges and most likely criminal..especially since a sign on the door said no guns.

    If it were me, I'd pull gun while heading behind for cover. If BG shot at clerk, I would fire. Otherwise I'd play the odds. Over 90% of the time clerk is not getting shot. If he does, 80% of gunshot victims survive. The way I see, clerk has about a 2% chance of getting killed...If I start shooting, I think his chances of survival go down....

    If YOU are the one being robbed or attacked, I feel you can be MUCH quicker in your use of deadly force because it is YOUR life in the balance, not some clerk who may pay the price of you trying to be a hero.
    Last edited by atl3695; January 18th, 2007 at 04:35 AM. Reason: grammar and spelling...3 am!!

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by atl3695 View Post
    .... Over 90% of the time, if employee cooperates, no one is hurt.....
    While you have some good points, let me ask you something.

    If you're going to the store & there only a 90% chance that you would make it safely & a 10% chance that you will die. Are you going to stay home or go shopping?

    My point is, are you willing to BET an INNOCENT'S life that they are one of that percentage that won't get shot/killed? How are you going to feel when the BG shoots & kills the clerk & you could have stopped it.

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.” - Patrick Henry

    “If violent crime is to be curbed it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore, what he must be taught to fear is the victim." - Jeff Cooper, the father of modern combat hand gunning.

    "He that suffers his life to be taken from him by one that hath no authority for that purpose, when he might preserve it by defense, incurs the Guilt of self murder since God hath enjoined him to seek the continuance of his life, and Nature itself teaches every creature to defend itself.” - A sermon, Philadelphia 1747.

    "As long as law-abiding citizens assume no personal responsibility for combating crime, liberal and conservative programs for curbing crime will fail." - Jeffrey R. Snyder, The Public Interest, No.113, Fall 1993.

    "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, do nothing." - Dante

    "Well, there are some things a man just can't run away from."

    A man ought to do what he thinks is right…

    "The price of freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness." -Robert A. Heinlein

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797) - English statesman

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will loose." -James Earl Jones
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

  13. #43
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Ir surprises me greatly how many people on here would choose "Option 5: Hide and hope he goes away."
    Option 1 & 3 are out of the question: they have the same result as option 5.
    Option 2 or 4 are the only options that I would even consider. If I were callous enough to say that I would only defend myself and let some innocent person die, then I wouldn't be able to show myself in public!

    I hope to those who wouldn't defend a 3rd person or who would wait and see, that your wives, sons, daughters, etc are never in the position of the clerk in this scenario.

    For me, the only option is #2, unless it looks like he is on the verge of firing at the clerk. Option 2 will get the dirtbag's attention off the clerk and directed to me, being the more immediate threat to him. This will get the clerk in the clear, and if I have had enough sense to move off to an angle where I have a clear line of fire, you have put yourself in the position of acting which is quicker than his position of reaction. If he drops the weapon then that is his only chance of coming out alive, then he lives. If he turns the weapon toward me, then he gets shot multiple times.

    Bottom line is that I am not going to have an innocent person's death on my conscience, when I could have stopped it.
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

  14. #44
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    I feel as if I would be forced to shoot. Not only because he may (or his buddies) try to shoot me, but third-party protection is legal in VA. I wouldn't be able to live with myself otherwise.
    I can't say for sure, but I have a feeling that defense of a third party is a valid defense in all states.

    In TN, we have a protection that I just recently read, that protects you from prosecution for "Carrying in a Posted Location" if the reason you are found carrying is because you justifiably used it in self or third party defense (T.C.A. 39-17-1322 - Safe Harbor Act). Seems like it could be pretty useful in justifiable shooting situations.
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

  15. #45
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G View Post
    The one thing that no one thought of is as soon you get the BG under control and have called 911 reholster your gun. When the cops arrive they might mistake you for the bad guy.
    True, but don't reholster too quickly. Many situations involve multiple threats. Scan before you reholster.

    Also, may be a good idea to give the 911 center your description and advise them you are armed and one of the good ones. When the officers arrive, make sure you are reholstered and might be a good idea to put your hands up and again advise them you are armed. You have not done anythign wrong, but it will avoid any miscommunication. An "armed robbery/shots fired" call does get our adrenaline pumping.
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

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