At the Seven Eleven

This is a discussion on At the Seven Eleven within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mexican_ninja Well, what about this situation. Same store, BG, and clerk. You don't want to give away your position and the BG ...

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Thread: At the Seven Eleven

  1. #46
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mexican_ninja View Post
    Well, what about this situation. Same store, BG, and clerk. You don't want to give away your position and the BG is holding that gun like he really is going to shoot. You pull your weapon but you now see that the clerk is RIGHT in front of the BG. Do you point the gun down and shoot the BG down his lower spine? Do you point the gun up and blow his brains out? Or do you just point straight and hope that the clerk doesnt' get hit? I know its a dumb question, but I had to know.
    As you draw, move to a clear line of fire.
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

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  3. #47
    Member Array Vermicious_Canid's Avatar
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    #4....

  4. #48
    Member Array CharlieMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Start out with three #4's...
    Then a #1...

    Stay alert...stay safe!

    ret


    I agree. I've thought about the giving commands thing and decided that it is probably never a good idea.

  5. #49
    Member Array oobray's Avatar
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    frustration

    First off I would like to vent some frustration. Those of you who are responding by saying things like "he deserved nothing but death" or " I would draw and blow him away" If someone were to read this forum, and say in trial. "See, these gun peopleare all alike. They just want to kill people" you have now not only done yourself a disservice, but the rest of the law abiding citizens who don't want to kill peoplea disservice. If you carry a weapon because you want to "punish" BG's or "kill" BG's rather than protect yourself and innocents within your proximityI DO NOT believe you should be carrying a weapon.
    Now, with that off my chest. I can only speak for myself. If I beleived that the clerk was in immenint danger, and I have witnessed the current situation (not what happened 20 min. or 2 days ago) then I would react with whatever force was necessary to stop the threat. I however do not fault someone who does not use deadly force to protect a third party. Lord knows there are many citizens and LEO's that should be touted as heros for acting in defense of a third party, that are currently behind bars.

    atl3695
    Where did you get those percentages, did you make them up? In any case, if there is a 10% chance of someone murdering another, I will do my best to make sure that does not happen.

    The question I do have for you all is... As I'm sure we were all taught to "aim center mass of the available target" would you risk shooting for the body. Say you were at an angle and his head was the biggest available target, would you shoot for the head?

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obxned View Post
    A big #4, near-contact range, back of the neck at junction w/ skull, angled upward.

    Can you wait until the clerk is killed before acting and still look yourself in the mirror. I buy coffee in the same few places regularly, and know most of these folks.
    + one here. If the clerk has the right to shoot so do I.

    I cannot let someone die while I decide wether or not I want to pay attorney fees. Maybe the clerk will help chip in on them for me.
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

    -- Theodore Roosevelt --

  7. #51
    FJC
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    These types of scenarios are always very tough...though I do think they are very worthwhile, if only to get people to think.

    I don't think there can be a single cut-and-dried answer. It would really depend on the specifics of the situation. If a bad guy draws on the clerk, but doesn't seem like he's going to shoot, I think I'd have to go with the 'best witness' option. After all, there's always the danger that when you shoot, he'll reflexively pull his trigger and kill the clerk.

    Now, if he's sending messages that I'm interpreting as, "he's gonna shoot, he's definitely gonna shoot," then it's certainly a different situation, and in such a case I'd draw and fire immediately.

    Tons of other things to take into account. Are there 5 kids right behind him poking around the candy display? Is there someone else that seems to be watching awfully closely that might actually be his backup?

    Things to ponder...

  8. #52
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    I don't think there can be a single cut-and-dried answer.
    This is true and prompts me to repeat something I have said before. It merits IMO the phrase ''Play it as you see it". Quite simply - no matter how much we try to conjure up a scenario - it is only and will remain in the realm of hypothetical.

    Variables can run the show - and those are too many to predict ahead of time.

    Let me also deprecate terms like ''I'd cap his a$$'' - ''blow him away'' etc ........ as has been noted and I agree, this hardly does much usefully for the responsible CCW's image. Secondly I doubt any individual can say on one hand ''I'll never intervene with third parties'' - any more than others saying - ''I'll always help a third party''.

    If we have some fixed decision in advance of an event - might we not follow that instead of ''playing it as we see it'' ........ and as a result perhaps not do the best thing, for that singularity.

    We just have to stay sharp, vigilant and ultimately act as we feel the situation demands - and hope to heck we get it right.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    oobray You made a good point. If people read that kind of message they could take it the wrong way and think you like shooting people. Remember no one likes to see any one die. Words like that can give the impression that you don't value life.

  10. #54
    New Member Array atl3695's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oobray View Post

    atl3695
    Where did you get those percentages, did you make them up? In any case, if there is a 10% chance of someone murdering another, I will do my best to make sure that does not happen.
    It is proven that 80% of gunshot victims survive..That is a fact..The 10% chance of clerk getting shot is actually high and I just used 10% as a "worst case" percentage. It is probably actually less than 5%..Lots of research has been done on this and it is common knowledge while I dont have an exact link. Go to any crime statistic site and you will see that armed robberies outnumber murders by alot. And remember that includes all murders and most murders (2/3)are criminal on criminal and not unknown victims. It has been known for a long time that the vast majority of armed robberies of stores do not end with the victim getting shot if they don't resist...No halfway logical person could argue that.Not to say that it never happens. We have a chain of discount stores in Atlana called Family Dollar. Report was just the news that the various stores have been robbed at gunpoint over 30 times in the last 3 years! No one ever injured as employees followed directions. Remember, to the BG, the clerk is not his intended victim, it is the 7-11. As long as clerk doesnt interfere with the goal (robbing the store).

    I also feel it is completely different when someone is approached on the street because they were SPECIFICALLY targeted and they are the actual target, as opposed to the clerk that just happened to be working at 7-11 that day, with the 7-11 being the target..

    Again, my main point was that you CAN NOT gurantee the clerk will be saved by you pulling your gun and firing. Gun is already pointed at the clerk and can easily be fired. You may just be making a bad situation worse. Especially if your asking questions like "should i aim center of mass or try for a head shot?" which means you think you might miss. Which is a possibility unless point blank. Suprised no one has mentioned their magical "situational awareness" that would have stopped the BG before he even pulled his gun.

    Lots of variables must be considered. While pulling your weapon may be an option, some of you have acted like it is the ONLY option, or your OBLIGATION OR DUTY, when in reality, each situation is different.

  11. #55
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    so what if you draw and dont fire... the BG turns around with a gun in his hand and is surprised to see you? is he NOT going to shoot at you?

    Either make a safe shot at the BG while heading for cover, or just stand there.

    Who is to say that the BG is only going to rob the store for $100? Why not rob the customers as well ?

    A BG robbing a store at gunpoint is a violent crime. Done only a few feet from your nose ? I do not understand the argument that the situation is safe enough and warrants no action on your part.

    It is proven that 80% of gunshot victims survive.
    Not 80% of my recipients!

  12. #56
    Member Array Alaskan454's Avatar
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    In my part of VA, the 7-11's aren't posted. My answer would be to get a clean shot and pull the trigger, assuming I saw the entire scenario unfold, of course. 300 grains of lead at ~1500 fps (454 Casull) should get the job done.

    It is true that most thugs just want the cash, and won't use their gun if given a choice, but that doesn't change the situation - there is no guarantee that it would end without bloodshed, therefore preemptive action is warranted.

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